EP040: Miha Matlievski, Business Mentor, Business and Life Coach and Activist from Slovenia

Sanja Milosavljevic: Good day, good people. My name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I will be your host today. You are listening and watching Mondopreneur, it is a podcast dedicated to people who are entrepreneurs, planning to start a private business, but not only to them but also for people who, for example, work in institutes, work in the NGO sector, work as university professors because the idea is to shed light on some problems or some issues that are relevant to all of us from different sides and to hear different thoughts on the topics we are dealing with. This whole project is supported by the US Embassy in Belgrade in Serbia. And I would like to thank them. My guest today is Miha. Miha is originally from Slovenia and currently lives and works in Novi Sad and he has a great name for both the website and the business he runs. I will just say Fail Coach and I am very sorry that I did not meet him 4-5 years ago when I started running a private business myself, because I would certainly have a lot to hear and learn from him, and I am certainly sure I can learn a lot from him even now. I won’t go on much longer, I’ll let Miha tell us something about himself, for the beginning. Miha, good day.

Miha Matlievski: Hi, Sanja.

Sanja Milosavljević: How are you?

Miha Matlievski:  Well, I am fine. The only good thing that you said is that I am from Slovenia, by the way. I try to learn Serbian as much as possible, of course, and now that I live here, but you know what, since most of my work is with Americans and so on, sometimes I mix it all up a bit from Slovenian to Serbian to English, especially when I have to speak with all of them. And then in the end that’s it, I don’t know what language I speak anymore. So, I apologize in advance because I will probably use an English word, maybe I’ll make a mistake in some Serbian, so that your audience knows that and won`t say, look at him, he doesn’t know how to speak Serbian.

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, that’s not a problem. First, as long as we understand each other, it doesn’t matter at all whether some mistake will happen or not. And the other thing about this podcast is when the guests are from abroad, from English-speaking areas or from other areas like China, Japan, Arabic or some other countries, we speak in English so that the audience is used to different languages. I usually ask the guests at the beginning to introduce themselves briefly, to tell us what their educational background is and whether what they finished has something to do with what they do today or has absolutely nothing to do with it. For example, I am a professor of Serbian language and literature and I do not work as a teacher. And, for example to share with us if you have an interesting hobby. So please, introduce yourself to us.

Miha Matlievski: Okay. Well, I dropped out of the school in the third year of high school because of the Italian language, and then I became an entrepreneur at the age of 18. And I think I listened to my mom for 10 years when she told me that I can’t just have an elementary school diploma. And then once I really had it enough. I went to that evening school, gave them all the papers there and said let me know what is the fastest course, just to make my mom happy. They told me that if I pass only two exams, I would have that three-year trade school diploma. I called her and asked: “Mom is that okay with you?” She said yes.  I thanked her, and enrolled in the school. So, officially I have a three-year trade school diploma, so I think I can go to retail shops to fill the shelves – by education. But then, later, I invested a lot in informal education and I think that every year I invest a lot of time and resources in it. But officially, it’s still that 3-year high school diploma and I think maybe one day they’ll give me, you know, that PhD when I have that keynote- that’s maybe it. It will be my closest encounter with the university. So that’s the official one. And otherwise, hobbies. I like to cook, as you can see, and of course eat. Then I love Zumba, I love Salsa, I love Reggaeton very much. Then I have a hobby that I wish was not my hobby, it is a war in saving animals. I mean, I would be the happiest if what I was doing was not necessary at all, but while it is, then thank God let it be so that I can do it. That’s why I basically came to Serbia because my second adopted dog was from Novi Sad and that’s how I got to know Novi Sad. And then one day I said okay, so it’s nice, you send some money, you send some food, but these girls who are there, they really do a hard job. What I want to say is that if I want to do something in life, then I have to change something and go where the action is and add something to it. It’s easiest to send some money and think about what you did. So, I hope it’s short enough, and you feel free to ask me whatever, I always tell everyone I’m like an open book, there’s nothing you can’t ask me so, go freely.

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, I usually ask people what is their educational background, not because I’m curious, but that is very important for me to know, just to see that formal education is okay, it is nice if you gained formal education or whatever, but that really doesn’t have to do anything with what we will do in life. I mean, something happened to me – I got that VII/2 degree, and then to run the company I run, I retrained and now I have a III degree of education. So, now I am a Baker/Confectioner, I am no longer a professor of Serbian language and literature. This is because, people are in a way – this is still typical for my generation, maybe even a generation a decade younger than me, our parents are still in a way stuck in that old system. You finish college, get a job in a public sector, get married – you know how it goes. So, that’s why I’m asking. Not at all-

Miha Matlievski: The thinking is very similar for our generations in Slovenia. I mean, my mom is all unhappy that I do not work in a company and she always asks me what will happen to my pension and she just doesn’t understand what I’m doing or how I do any of that, she just knows that I don’t work in a big company. Because she worked in a bank and she is now retired, and who knows what will happen to her son and that is – she still suffers because of that.

Sanja Milosavljević: Ah, I know, I know. I mean, I know how my parents were desperate, like, poor child you read so many books, now you’re going to knead the dough. But these are some older generations. I don’t know where to start from. So, I have so many interesting things to talk to you about. Do you want to tell us something about Fail, what Fail Coach is, why- at one point to talk about failure was like- no one talked about it. And then at some point, for example, five years ago, it got just so important, and then like, if you didn’t fail, it doesn’t seem that you succeeded. It was as if the mirror had turned around, a bit. Do you want to tell us something about-

Miha Matlievski: I can. Okay, that’s my favorite topic, but you know honestly when you’re traveling around the world – I’ve been invited to a lot of conferences to talk about all that and America and when you’re going to Silicon Valley, it’s a lot of talking – fail fast, fail forward and all that but only when it doesn’t happen to you. So, in theory it’s very clear to everyone, but to internalize it, to really have what I call a healthy relationship with failure and to really accept failure for what it is, and that’s a fantastic lesson and a fantastic opportunity for growth and- we’ll come a little deeper into it, it still lasts. And it’s not that easy for people. As I said, while it’s happening to others then it’s easy to talk about it and while it’s something that is happening to you- and again, it can be a small failure. I made risotto, and I didn’t turn out right. You know. Fuck. And when it’s a fail to which you have some very positive emotions tied to in order for something positive to happen to you and then it doesn’t happen, then I think you really have to train your inner self a lot and there are more things connected to it – mindfullness, emotional intelligence, to the very understanding, to the fact that you know how to culminate both logic and emotions, to how to practice focus-look at things. But what is failure anyway, maybe that’s a good thing to start with. When we do something for the hundredth time, then we have already mastered it and it is something that is in our comfort zone, I mean, we are comfortable with that. We’ve done it so many times and we’ll do it automatically. It’s very difficult for us to file, isn’t it? But we, entrepreneurs in particular, but not just entrepreneurs, let’s say those who are top athletes, and so on, we all have some crazy big dreams and goals. So, we want to go to Mars, we want this, we want that. So those are things we haven’t mastered yet. This is something new that we need yet to master. And that means when we do something new the first, second time – it’s something that is outside our comfort zone. And now that we’re doing something that’s out of the comfort zone, then it’s not 50:50 whether we’ll succeed or fail but it’s probably 80:20 or 90:10 that we’ll probably fail the first few times before we figure out how to do something good and right in order to be okay. And now if we look from the side – now, it doesn’t happen to us – it is logical for all of us that if we want things that are outside the comfort zone, we have to test, try a lot of some things because only in that way we will get what we want on the other side of the comfort zone. And that’s the whole logic behind why failure is such a good thing. Because without that fail we won’t get to the things that work. I mean, if we look at medical science, we have this Corona. Well, they probably tried thousands of variations of that vaccine until they found those couple that work. So, they failed who knows how many times with the wrong ingredients until they found the one that was right. Now, when we- while we use logic, then it still somehow works. For example, those people who are in R&D are usually technical people who are more logical than emotional. At some point we come to the emotions and very quickly forget that before everything there is a process first, and only after that there is a goal. And we forget to look at the process, we forget to look that we may have taken some wrong steps in the process. Or that we had some bottleneck that we didn’t see so we didn’t achieve the goal. We are focusing on that goal, like, I have not achieved that, I will cry, take my Lego and go to a tree house, and I am not going down. And then things get very complicated because then those emotions pull even bigger emotions, then we start that negative conversation with ourselves which also draws negative energy and then from that failure we start to think that we are a failure and then bad things can happen-

Sanja Milosavljević: Yeah, sorry- sorry to interrupt, but it’s like when I listen to other people it’s like they’re identifying themselves with failure. So, it’s not like, I haven’t succeeded in that endeavor or attempt, but they identify – they say I’m unsuccessful, and in fact only that one test of a product or service or something else is unsuccessful. So, are we sluggish? Especially, since I know you have experience working with people from abroad and you have experience working with people here, from the region, are we sluggish?

Miha Matlievski: No.

Sanja Milosavljević: How much are we- how easy is it for us to change? How easily we accept, for example – how easily your clients accept suggestions, advice … it doesn’t matter that they turned to you and asked for your help, is there an internal – internal resistance to change?

Miha Matlievski: I would not say that there is anything very different in this region. I mean, I usually listen to the same stories. For example, when you talk to people from Asia, they speak about Americans, they say it is easy for us in Europe, everything is easier for us. Then when you talk here in Europe – they say it’s easier for Americans, it’s easier for those in Asia. When you talk to Americans, they tell very similar stories again, and it depends more on the person. My theory is that the more you let go of the pain when something hurts you, the more open you will be to listen to someone and be more open-minded, so let’s try to understand maybe what this person is telling me. And you have those people who have a healthier mindset. These are quite often people who have trained in some sports because in sports it is quite a basic thing that you have the whole team around you and coaches and mentors and this and that and masseurs and who knows what else, and it is logical for them. And in entrepreneurship I don’t know why but all of us, entrepreneurs – I am also to be blamed – we think we have to do everything ourselves and we are all unique and what happens to us only happens to us and only we have something, I don’t know what. And then when you add more social networks to the mix and go to Facebook or Instagram and see how everyone posts how nice it is for them, only then you can really think to yourself, I don’t know anything, everything bad happens to me and then you put yourself in that circle and you can’t get out of it. But I mean, I see a lot of people here who are very open to what I’m doing, and you also see a lot of people who are not, it’s not, it’s like- you tell empty stories, this and that, there are always all kinds of people everywhere. Everyone needs some time of their own. I mean, if I hadn’t been as stubborn as I had been I wouldn’t have gone through my failures, I would have asked someone for advice. But I was the person that would go to the edge and that’s why everything failed and that’s why, in one day I came from a huge plus to a minus of almost five million dollars.

Sanja Milosavljević: That’s interesting for me, can you tell us a bit more about that? Because- it’s a bit of a movie story. How you come from a huge plus to deep minus. It’s not like 100-200 thousand euros, it was a greater amount.

Miha Matlievski: Well, it’s not a movie story. I tell everyone, look, I think I need 5-10 minutes and I can help you try the same thing, if you think you need such a school. It’s not hard to do that, at all. Look, before 2008, 2009-2008, the crisis started in America, and then in 2009, I think it was in September, it came to Europe, I think. And before that, similar to the state before the Covid-19. The economy went just fine. Then, if you were an entrepreneur for a short time, you could be walking down the street and the banks were throwing money at you. It was very easy to get a loan. It was easy and if you were a bit good at selling, it was easy to sell, you bought this, that, real estate went up. And then, we all forgot that after every peak like this, comes a crisis. And I have not experienced such crises, especially until then. I never even thought it could ever go down. And then what happens, at first you try and you see how it goes, then a bit more, and then you start using those leverages, you know, well, I won’t just use my capital, now I’ll let the suppliers lend it to me, let’s go wholesale. It doesn’t matter if it’s not profitable here, just that it’s cash flow, it will come later when we get to some figures. And so I came to a real estate project near Ljubljana and I knew some people. I was given the opportunity, I went to the bank, the bank gave me 100% financing. I just had to sign that they would have the exclusive right to offer loans to people who would buy apartments from me, so that was the story-

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, okay. The same model exists here. That is…

Miha Matlievski: Yes. And I had the leverages here, the leverages there and then the crisis came and everything stopped immediately. I mean, for every crisis – you know, if you have a solid foundation, you go through those first six months and then what is rotten becomes clear. But the problem was that since I was in leverages and all that, I was that rotten one. When I talk to people, I often mention that building a business is like building a house. First the foundation and then straight up, the better the foundation the more you can build up. And I didn’t have any foundations. And my houses, my companies were like that first house from that story about three pigs. And I was a little bit upset regarding what happened to me. One of my companies was in that real estate project. My price, when you add everything – the design, and construction and place to build and all that, I would come to some EUR 1850 per square meter. And the selling price in that part of town was from EUR 2400 for studios or, EUR 2400 for large apartments and even EUR 3000 for studios, per square meter. So, I would make a nice profit, only it was a problem – I started it half a year before the crisis started. And we turned around, I had already paid, a year earlier, I don’t know how many hundreds of thousands of euros to the designers. Well, we have already started digging, so that we can mount scaffolding – I have already invested half of the loan, and then suddenly the real estate market collapsed and at that moment it was EUR 1500 max, which I could sell a square meter on the market price. So, you see that there was a negative difference in price. And since that was not the case, the bank assessed that there was no chance to sell at that price. So, we were like, let’s get through it for a couple of months, so it will be better than this situation, it will last until everything is set. We are no longer ready for that, and I am from all my companies, me like Miha – of course I did not enter into that project to steal from someone. I entered into it with my whole heart. And now I am – when they gave me the loan, they said, aha, you are the owner of this company, this company, this company – you will sign here, you will sign there. And in Slovenia, you have another thing, a real bill of exchange, because when I send a bill of exchange to the bank, if you don’t have money in your account, the bank returns it to you. No, the bank deletes the bill and that’s it and then I have to go to court. And we have another thing called a promissory note. Which is almost like a court execution. So, if you don’t have money in your account, then they block your account. And so, they sent that promissory note to all my companies, they withdrew the money that was up there, they withdrew what was coming to that account, I was financed by the suppliers, instead of money going to the suppliers it went to the bank, I couldn’t pay the suppliers. Since I couldn’t pay the suppliers and workers, they stopped working, and so the domino effect ruined everything for me. But I say, there’s nothing movie like about it, but really, I didn’t have any real foundations, I didn’t know – I didn’t know anything about corporate structuring, how to protect that, how to separate projects. For me, it was all in one. And I went in that with the whole heart, heroically … but there it was.

Sanja Milosavljević: A man can make a mistake, it’s not – it’s a movie like for me because I listened to another conversation of yours where you spoke very openly and honestly, which is very rare. So, everyone appeals to honesty, but very rarely does one want to speak honestly in that way about the conditions they went through, about temptations, about depression, about suicide, about everything that, as you yourself said a moment ago, seems to be happening to someone else other than me. Well, I would never wish for something like that. In that sense, you know – the story begins as if you wanted to build a residential building and then it ended up like you did not have the money to buy rope.

Miha Matlievski: Sanja, just in short – that was a couple of years later. By then, I had already gotten out, gone through those suicide ideas and attempts and all that stuff. I was in that non-formal education part of this CEED. You had it in Belgrade for a while, I think it was also supported by the American Embassy of some American funds, but it didn’t last long in Serbia. But I was in Slovenia doing the same events and then, when all those crises were over, this man, who was a moderator who did all those events, he wanted to do one event about failures. And he called those who he knew had gone through something and none of the more famous ones wanted to talk about it. And that’s how he came to me and I don’t know what happened to me, I said yes. So .. now. I said yes, we can book. As the time for that event approached, I panicked. What am I going to do now – who am I, what am I going to do, but then I was ashamed to say to him, I’m sorry, I don’t want to do this. Because when I gave my word, then – and now I – that event is coming and I’m already starting to think how to polish this a little bit, how to do the PR, how to explain, well, it was the state’s fault, it was these men and it was their fault. When I entered that event and there were a lot of some – they announced it and I didn’t know who would come. Lots of people who were involved in these things were there. People who knew me, who were some of my former suppliers and so on. Well then there was no more room for polishing things and lying and all that stuff. And it was like that, I had two double whiskeys, I said what will happen, will happen, I will go on stage and act most honestly and that everything as it is. Because I knew they knew how things were, how it was, and if I try to say something else now, I mean, it won’t end well. And then what happened? It happened, I told all those things, and these people who sued me and called me – you know, those were not calls, I will sue you, but they were threatening, we will take you to the river Sava, calls and so on. I mean, there were threats. When these people came to me and gave their hands, and told me, hey, I didn’t know what happened, how it was, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it, when I saw how it really turned out, I didn’t have anything to lose then. I went there and let’s be honest-

Sanja Milosavljević: To the end.

Miha Matlievski: Yes. And when I saw that, and when they started telling me their stories, then another thing happened. When it was all over, we had networking after the conference. Of course, you have to drink beer in Slovenia. And a young girl came to me, she must have been maybe 20 years old at the time. So, she waited in line because there were a few people talking to me and then she came to me, and said, you know Miha, my dad was an entrepreneur and similar things happened to him like happened to you, but with much less figures. But he didn’t find his vibe at that moment and of course he went all the way and killed himself. And she said that the whole family, they could never understand. Because, these were not such big problems. It wasn’t that hard. We could have done something, to make through, to do something. She said, now that I’ve listened to you, what had made you – because it is not my thing to run away from things. But the problem was – my brain was working 24/7, it was like a nuclear reactor. And you just want a little silence, to get some rest. Because Friday is coming, you are in anxiety until Monday, depressed in a panic that Monday morning is coming. I tried not to fall asleep, just to prolong my days. Because I knew when I went to bed, eight hours – you wake up, again in the same shit. And she said, now that I’ve listened to you, for the first time, I can understand. And when she told me that, that’s when Fail Coach started. Because at that moment, as if on my own – I don’t even know how to explain, but at that moment I realized that this story of mine was not easy for me to talk about, nor do I really like it – I mean, to go through those things non-stop. Plus, I’ve reworked it and for me it’s a past that I appreciate, I know I needed those lessons because I wouldn’t be who I am today, but I don’t need to talk about it. But at that moment it was, I have to talk about it honestly, openly, because people like this have to hear it. And it’s not a story about me and for me and my ego, but it is the way I can help others. And since I started, I had, I think about 300 interviews for various podcasts last year, and stuff like that. People from all over the world call me non-stop. Well, about a few months ago, I got a call from a girl I had never met in my life. She is somewhere in the Middle East, she lives in Manila, she heard my podcast two years ago – no, 2018 and she told me I turned to you because I want you to know that your story helped me, because I was so close to do it, to harm myself. And when they call you like that and when you hear those things – and I say, it’s not for me at all, if someone hears this from your listeners, if it helps someone just a little bit. Yet it was this Corona year, people are in crisis, they have been going through very difficult things. If this will help one person, then we have made our own and it is worth telling about it once again, once again and once again.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, I agree. Wonderful. You said that nicely. Um, can you tell us something – you mentioned it, but I’d like to get into it now. What is emotional intelligence? Is it enough to read that one Goleman book or- how to, for example- how to deal with it and how emotional intelligence helps us in running a business? And one more question, please – is there any difference between women and men? Here, your clients are both men and women – what method do you use for one or for the other?

Miha Matlievski: Well, it is easier to work with women. Especially…

Sanja Milosavljević: In what way? Sorry, in what way?

Miha Matlievski: I like to work with – they are called Mompreneurs. Moms, who like to- why? Well, women are much more used to having to do some shit sometimes, that needs to be done. And we, men like to avoid doing stuff. We wouldn’t change diapers, we wouldn’t get up in the middle of the night, and women are really much more used to it. And when you build trust, women are much more likely to do what is difficult for them, when they believe you. Because being an entrepreneur is not that you will only do what is easy. Sometimes you have to do the things that have to be done that you are not familiar with. Well, that’s one thing. And the other thing is that- you know what they say about women – it is always “oh, they’re emotional, they’re irrational” and most of the women are kind of okay with that. Like okay, we women are emotional. It’s much easier to add logic to an emotional person than to a person who thinks it’s logical, and we’re not logical beings, we’re all emotional beings. It’s just a matter of how much we’ve suppressed that down. And for men. You know that thing, you have to be a man, you don’t talk about those things. And then they even convince themselves no, no, I’m a logical person. No, you’re not logical, you’re just suppressing things. And it is much harder to add that emotional part to such a person. And when you look – marketing is emotions, sales are emotions, leadership is huge emotions. So, if you are not in touch with your emotions, you will find it very difficult to do those things. That’s why I say, that’s why it’s much easier to work with women and that they are much more used to having to do things in life that they don’t like, but you know why you are doing them – because there is a reward waiting for you in the end. And we, men, we like to cut curves all the time, even where there are no curves. That’s why it’s much easier to work with women. And now when you say emotional intelligence, I mean especially when we talk about entrepreneurship, about leadership, that’s one of the most basic soft skills you have to have as a leader. Now the problem with soft skills is that you can’t learn them from a book, you have to practice them. I mean, you read the first book, that’s how it starts, but then the implementation is much slower than with hard skills. You read a book about hard skills, you have some examples there, you type something and you have done something and you can build later on that. Now, emotional intelligence is one of the most popular topics that companies usually hire me for. And it has four pillars. And everyone would like to skip the first three. So, the first is self-awareness. To be … how to translate it into Serbian, to be…

Sanja Milosavljević: Self-aware. You understand and accept yourself and you are aware of yourself.

Miha Matlievski: Yes, yes, but to achieve self-awareness it is not enough for you to look at yourself in the mirror. What we see, 9 out of 10 people do not see themselves nearly as much as people around them see them. Then you need to have a little bit of balls and a little bit of humble to go to your colleagues, to co-workers, to bosses, to subordinates, to relatives and to convince them: no, I really want to hear no matter how painful and difficult it will be, tell me, because I really want to get to know myself and understand myself. And a lot of people fall there because they just don’t want to hear the truth. But-

Sanja Milosavljević: Sorry to interrupt you, but there’s one exercise. I recently had a psychologist as a guest and she was just talking about it. There is one most basic exercise – to stand naked in front of a mirror and look at yourself. To really understand the dimensions of your body, if nothing else. Because it is as if we are not aware of this shell that is around us, let alone be aware of what we are like as a person. It’s just like that, it’s the most basic exercise. You stand in front of the mirror and no matter how uncomfortable you are, you look at yourself naked in the mirror. As a starting point.

Miha Matlievski: Yes, yes, but this self-awareness I think really is a journey. It’s not just something like I will sit down today, I will do a couple of exercises and that’s it. That’s okay. For example, when I work with leaders, it lasts for a couple of months. When I started working on myself, it took me about three year, that journey. And I’m still on that journey, I’m still pessimistic as much as I hear from others and, I would say that I may have already achieved some at 90% self-awareness, which is very, very high percentage but I think, if you go nearer to 100% it’s harder, there are some details and you- the first 80% is always the easiest thing to do. So, the deeper you go the harder it gets. And it’s a journey. Let’s get started now is self-awareness. Then the second step is self-management. To manage yourself, your emotions, your logic, to balance yourself, this, that, that when you say that you will do something, you do it, and so on. And then we come to social awareness, which means when I enter a room, I know how to recognize energies, relationships, who is with whom, in what manner, whom to address, and so on. And the last thing is managing other people. And people would skip all three and go directly to managing others. So emotional intelligence-

Sanja Milosavljević: Sorry –

Miha Matlievski: Yes.

Sanja Milosavljević: Is someone naturally like that? Have you met people who are spontaneously and naturally like that without some excessive work on self-development? I mean, you can always fine-tune in a little bit of fine-tuning, but have you met people who are naturally good leaders and have highly developed emotional intelligence?

Miha Matlievski: I mean, it’s just because maybe they did some work earlier. It’s not that you were born and you’re emotionally intelligent. Some have started working on that skill earlier, and unknowingly. Because you know that emotional intelligence is a little bit of psychology, a little bit of empathy, a little bit of what you are by nature and so on. And some people started it a little earlier, so when you meet them, they are already at a high level. But it is not something that someone is born like that.

Sanja Milosavljević: You know, I’m asking you that because it always exists like that story that someone is born as an entrepreneur or does one become an entrepreneur. Is it a skill that can be mastered or does someone have to have a predisposition and someone really has to work really hard in order to become a successful entrepreneur? In that sense, I ask you- is a person born as an entrepreneur or does one become an entrepreneur?

Miha Matlievski: I mean, like – we are different people and of course some people have good communication skills, some don’t. Some are a bit more psychologist by nature, some are a bit less. So of course, some have better predispositions- though, you know something. Those who have a bit better predisposition usually cut the curves even more and then it just hits them on the head. And my honest opinion is that when I run into someone who doesn’t have those predispositions, but is a fighter, in the long run he will win. If you have a predisposition, it will be easier for you at the beginning, you sell something, you sell something there, but in the long run not like that at all. In the long run, you have a system, processes, consistency. Because those who are naturally a bit better, they are also like – we will do this easily. And they just cut the curves and then it hits them.

Sanja Milosavljević: Now, we have reached that fourth pillar. What is it in general – who is the leader? How to become a leader? I know some people who, for example, are in very high positions in large corporations or run some of their smaller corporate businesses where I’m like, you people are great – the way they work it’s like a beautiful stream that flows effortlessly, they operate like that. And how – who is the leader? How do you become a good leader?

Miha Matlievski: Well … how to become one. You become a good leader through a lot of work on yourself that never stops. I always say that in my opinion the definition of leadership – because it has changed a lot in the last couple of years. If you look at 30 years, 20 years ago, directors or the real Balkan director, it was something completely different, but then people did not have the possibilities as we have today. Today you can be here in Novi Sad, you work, I don’t know, as an accountant in a service company, someone is mobbing you a bit and so on, you say goodbye, finish a bookkeeping course and start offering your services for 20-30 dollars per hour to the Americans. So, all this globalization and technology and various things have changed a lot and people have many more opportunities. And that old way of leadership where you kept people locked up doesn’t work anymore. And because it doesn’t work anymore, the leadership has changed and what I call leadership today is servant leadership. You are not at the top of the pyramid, that pyramid has inverted. You’re at the bottom and you’re here, but again, some people misunderstand that. This does not mean that you are now at the disposal of everyone, you will never make a point using power, but by balancing properly in between. And those soft virtues have become much more dominant. It means empathy, emotional intelligence, mindfulness, communication virtues, problem solving, values, integrity and so on. And that makes you a leader. I don’t think that what makes you a leader can be put on the business card. I mean, I’ll give you one great example. Last year, in January, I started working as a coach with a small company from Novi Sad, which had 6 owners at the time. I think that there are still 6 owners. And the first thing was, we can’t have democracy there, because they needed three hours to chat over coffee for every little thing – where they will buy toilet paper. It was not indecision or anything. And then the first thing we set up was the structure. And that’s where one of them stood out. I mean, my suggestion was when I did interviews with all of them, he was the one who already had the most leverage to be right to try to use as many leverages as possible and not to start being a CEO, someone who has to learn everything from scratch. And this one already had a lot of things learned earlier. And the first thing I told him was look, it’s nice to put on the business card that you are the director, CEO, I agree, but trust me, your position will be the hardest. And trust me, in a couple of months, you’ll tell me if I really needed all of this. So that leadership is no longer what it used to be – I’m the boss now and I say this and that. I mean, it still works in some industries where you might have some people who haven’t figured out the internet yet and how. You know, people who don’t have those modern skills. For example, people from some manufacturing industries. There you can still rule in the old fashion way. And today, everything is completely different. And those soft virtues and those things, that’s what every leader has to do – and it’s a constant war, it never ends. And leadership is not something you say I am a leader, but leadership means to act like a leader and deserve people telling you that you are a leader.

Sanja Milosavljević: It is interesting for me, whenever there are many co-owners in one company, at least here in our region it can be quite shaggy because they are arguing, they can’t agree from that micromanagement to that managing different sectors. How did that company go? Did they accept, did they consolidate-

Miha Matlievski: Yes.

Sanja Milosavljević: Did they make – good, good form them.

Miha Matlievski: Fantastic. In one year, they grew for approximately 250%.

Sanja Milosavljević: Great work. Did they already have processes set…?

Miha Matlievski: No, there was nothing. We did all the work almost from the scratch, but you can see the strength of many of them properly distributed, so that everyone knows who should do what and when. And it wasn’t easy, but it’s a young team, they had energy, they had the will, and right now we’re doing a case study from that story so we can present it to our clients now that I’m moving a little bit more here in the Balkans to work. Because you know, when I start sharing my success from Europe, America to explain it what I do, everyone was like “well, that’s America”, and that’s exactly why I want to make a case study out of them, to say here you are – a company from Serbia that went from here to there. Now, we have just taken out those charts – from employees, from traffic, from the number of the project, everything is exponentially growing. But everywhere is the same, everywhere when you have co-owners. Because people who do this – we sit down, drink a beer, get an idea and now we get excited about that idea and we don’t say let’s talk first about who is going to do what, what is the share, who are shareholders, what’s in business, how are we going to compensate, how are we going to do this or that. So, we don’t do any of that. And we’re just working. And we work, we work, we work and you have no results, there is no money yet and we are the only ones that work. Then, when the money comes, the problems start. Like, I’m in sales, so if it weren’t for me, we wouldn’t make anything, and you say that if it weren’t for me, what you sold wouldn’t have anyone to produce. And then it goes from there. And then when wives or husbands get involved and then you know at home that “so you work non-stop, then you do this, then you do that, so your part is so valuable” and then the problems start. I mean, I have one of the programs that I do quite often because I have a lot of these situations with multiple active owners. So, there is a big difference if, say, you and I say, let’s put in 100,000 each, find a director, we are passive shareholders, once a year we vote on how much profit to take from the company and that’s it – see you once a year. It’s one thing usually, but in the beginning, people don’t have that option and then they’re doing everything, wearing different hats in the company. And we have training just for shareholders. Where we go through all that – what are yours – what do you have to do, how much do you have to do, how is it divided in the company, what kind of the communication do we have, how are the meetings organized, so it is a program that lasts three months to get a company organized, what contracts you need, how to set the mission, vision, advantages of company culture and all those things that we really can say, now we have laid the foundation, now we have something, we can build the company further.

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, unfortunately we don’t have much time left, and I would like to ask you so many things. Can you make a parallel, since you mentioned it nicely at the beginning that you have the experience of a great economic crisis that happened and we all know how long it took us to recover? At this moment, we are also in a kind of recession, this has affected – it happened simultaneously all over the world, everything is connected, so the whole supply chains are broken. I’m not asking you to be a prophet, but is there a good script for us? Is there a way we can use the knowledge from the previous and great crisis that arose in the past? So, it was not a natural disaster, but the logic of the crisis is the logic of the crisis – there are certain steps. Can you make a parallel, can you make it easier for us, like listen to people in 3 years, everything will be great?

Miha Matlievski: Well, I mean – there probably won’t be anything that will make it easier for us because usually people don’t want to hear this. But you know, some industries are going to show an increase, and some industries are going to show a decrease. No crisis is a crisis for everyone or an opportunity for everyone. Now, in these times it is wise to be smart in a way to put emotions on the side and be even more logical than in prosperous times and look at what your financial indicators are, this is what the opportunities are for your industry, what is happening, to make some good research and then be open to change if necessary. I mean, you know, that’s it – Einstein, I think, said do the same thing and expect change – I mean – you know, it’s very difficult for people. I was like that, you put your heart and soul into something, brought it to some point and now the crisis is raging. And now, you know, you’re thinking, God forbid, I hope this or that will happen – you have to forget about all that. Hoping and saying – God forbid and I similar – what the greatest value is if you are already an entrepreneur, if you already have a company, then you have a client, you have a group of people who follow you, who love you, who appreciates you and so on. I call it leverage of trust. Because sales and marketing are what? You gained trust. So, first someone has to meet you, then they start appreciating you and then when you have enough trust, then people are ready to give you their credit card or cash. Now, building from scratch “know-like-trust” takes time. And it costs. And here we already have a group of people who already have some trust in us. Use that. Maybe you can talk to these people. Maybe they need something else, so you can add something to the company, change it, replace it, start thinking, there is no magic word to say, you are now a travel agency, it will now flourish. No, it won’t. I mean, we’ll see what happens to inflation now. We’ll see what happens to the stock markets. Because this, as the stock market went up all year, is not logic in the economy. Now, will these state, national banks and all that manage to somehow manage this, who knows. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. I never bet that something good will happen. I always go for the worst to happen, and what happens is somewhere in between, but I’m always ready for the worst scenario. And a real estate crisis could happen to us. Some people in America are already talking about it. Et cetera. So, we may now be, I think, we may be near the end of the Covid-19, but we may now be at the beginning of a great and even worse economic crisis. And a good entrepreneur is not an entrepreneur who has a plan and then everything goes step by step. A good entrepreneur is one who knows how to swim with all that and when you see that he is not going here, then let’s do this, let’s do this, let’s go like this. Let’s go like that. And now, of course, someone who bought a restaurant, built the restaurant for some time … to help him make that decision and say no, I don’t see this going forward. I’m stopping. What we lost, we lost, maybe we will have some plus left and we are moving into something new. I know. Is not easy to do that. But unfortunately, I say, people don’t usually want to hear that, but to be strong in those moments to put emotions aside, to forget that it’s like if it is your child, to be logical and to pour yourself a glass of wine. This is one thing that we usually offer as a company, it is due diligence. When we work with the company – when we start coaching, we always start with due diligence first. And you should always pour a glass of wine. And now I already know that entrepreneurs when they tell me what they think about their company it is still filtered through their emotions. I have to do my review with my team and look at the business plan and the finances and the industry and the market and everything. So, there isn’t anything in the company that we do not study and that is a very strong, strong analysis. I mean, a couple of people here in Serbia have told me that they haven’t heard before that local company would offer a service like that, but in my opinion that is the most basic thing to do, honestly, I think that every company should do it at least once a year as cross section of the company. To see where it is, who we are, how we are doing and where we are going. And whether we can get there or not.

Sanja Milosavljević: Oh, I agree, although, for example, I only learned to read the balance sheet in the 2nd or 3rd year of running my company, for example. The accountant does the final balance sheet, hands it over to the Tax Administration, and I’m like okay, let’s move on, the new year is starting. And in the third year, I took that paper and said, let’s go through this slowly, what does this number mean, what is this, what does it tell me, what does this mean to me, what is a problem, what is not a problem. So, there is a lot to be learned while working.

Miha Matlievski: Well look, I mean, that’s one thing I don’t even understand why I was as crazy as I used to be. But I was the same, dropped out in my third year of high school and started as an entrepreneur. Like, what did I know about entrepreneurship? But if I had at least taken a book, I don’t know, for college students, so at least I would have read it. You know, let me read a little bit about what human resources are, what finances are, what this is, what that is. The company is not just a marketing funnel, selling and we can hope for the best. I mean, let’s be- and again this globalization, the internet and all that, more people are getting into entrepreneurship. People who have no education. It would be good to have some knowledge of the theory behind running a company. That theory is nothing according to practice, but at least you know how to look at the balance sheets. You know, 30 years ago most people who became entrepreneurs were either from some entrepreneurial school, or they were from some entrepreneurial family. And today a lot of people get into entrepreneurship. Well, they don’t take the time to educate themselves on things that are needed. I mean, we can talk for hours now about what they are – as I mentioned before, you know the basics, the mission, this thing, there are a lot of those things that go with everything that is needed – I think, it is necessary. Sooner or later, you have to do them, better sooner than later. Because when the company just scales and you have to build the foundations, that’s just a recipe for chaos.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes. A recipe for chaos. Miha, thank you very much. Thank you very much for your patience. I have to say that you waited for me for an hour, which is not very nice of me. So really, I really enjoyed our conversation

Miha Matlievski: Thanks, you too.

Sanja Milosavljević: Um, of course, yes, I hope we will meet in person. Dear people, you watched and listened to Miha and I sincerely hope you enjoyed it, I did. You can follow us on social networks such as Facebook, Instagram and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel by typing #mondopreneur. Be good and in good health, and see you in a week.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Dobar dan, dobri ljudi, moje ime je Sanja Milosavljevic i ja ću biti vaša voditeljka danas. Vi slušate i gledate Mondopreneur, to je podkast koji je posvećen ljudima koji su preduzetnici, planiraju da počnu da se bave nekim privatnim biznisom, ali ne samo oni nego i ljudi koji na primer rade na institutima, rade u NGO sektoru, rade kao univerzitetski profesori zato što ideja je da osvetlimo neke probleme ili neka pitanja koja su nam svima aktuelna sa različitih strana i da čujemo različita razmišljanja na teme kojima se bavimo. Ceo ovaj projekat podržava američka ambasada u Beogradu u Srbiji. I ja im se zahvaljujem ovim putem. A moj današnji gost je Miha. Miha je poreklom iz Slovenije a trenutno živi i radi u Novom Sadu i on ima super ime i sajta i posla kojim se bavi. Ja ću samo reći Fail Coach i mnogo mi je žao što ga nisam upoznala na primer pre 4-5 godina kada sam i sama počinjala da se bavim privatnim poslom, jer bih ja sigurno imala mnogo šta da čujem i saznam od njega, a svakako sigurna sam da i sad mogu da mnogo naučim od njega. Ja neću mnogo da dužim nego ću pustiti Mihu da nam ispriča za početak nešto o sebi. Miha, dobar dan. 

Miha Matlievski: Zdravo Sanja. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Kako si?

Miha Matlievski: Pa evo, u redu. Jedino dobro što si rekla da sam ja inače iz Slovenije. Trudim se ja naučiti što bolje srpski naravno a sad kad živim ovde, ali znaš kako pošto meni većina rada je sa Amerikancima i tako dalje pa ja nekad malo pomešam to sve od slovenskog do srpskog do engleskog, pogotovo kad u istom danu moram da pričam i sa jednima i drugima i trećima. I onda na kraju je to već ono, ne znam više koji jezik pričam. Tako da ja se već unapred izvinjavam jer verovatno će mi izleteti i neka engleska reč, možda ću neku srprsku malo pogrešiti pa samo da tvoj audience eto zna da ne bi bili u vid ga ovoga ne zna da priča srpski.

Sanja Milosavljević: E, pa nije to nikakav problem. Prvo, dok god se razumemo uopšte nije važno da li će da se potkrade neka greška ili ne. A druga stvar ovaj podkast se kada su gosti iz inostranstva sa engleskog govornog područja ili iz drugog područja tipa Kina, Japan, arapske neke druge zemlje, mi onda razgovaramo na engleskom tako da je publika navikla na različite jezike. Ja obično goste na početku pitam da nam se predstave ukratko, da nam kažu šta su po obrazovanju i da li to što su završili ima neke veze sa onim čime se danas bave ili nema apsolutno nikakve veze. I pošto na primer ja sam profesor srpskog jezika i književnosti a uopšte se ne bavim pedagogijom. I na primer ako imaš neki interesantan hobi. Tako da izvoli, predstavi nam se. 

Miha Matlievski: Okej. Pa ja sam pao u trećoj godini srednje škole zbog italijanskog jezika i onda sam krenuo u preduzetničke vode sa 18 godina. I mislim da sam jedno 10 godina mamu slušao kad mi je pričala pa ne možeš imati samo osnovnu školu završenu. I onda jednom je stvarno bilo dosta toga. Išao sam do one večernje škole, dao im tamo sve papire i rekao ajte vi meni kažite šta je najbrže, samo da bude mama sretna. Oni meni kažu ako položiš samo neka dva ispita imaš onu trogodišnju trgovsku školu. Ja nju zovem i kažem mama jel ti to okej? Jeste? Hvala, potpisujem. Tako da ja moje ono oficijalno je trogodišnja trgovska škola tako da mislim da mogu u Merkator da idem da punim police – po obrazovanju. Al sam onda kasnije mnogo ulagao u neformalne edukacije samog sebe i mislim to svake godine jako mnogo i vremena i resursa ostalih ulažem u to. Ali ono oficijalno, to je još uvek ta 3-godišnja srednja škola i mislim da možda nekog dana mi daju znaš onaj doktorat kad ideš da imaš onaj keynote- eto to možda. To će mi biti najbliži susret sa univerzitetom. Tako da to je ono moje oficijalno. A inače hobija zanimljivih šta ja znam. Volim da kuvam, što se vidi, i da jedem naravno uz to. Onda volim zumbu, volim salsu, volim regeton to baš jako. Onda imam neki hobi koji bih voleo da mi nije hobi, to je rat u spašavanju životinja. Mislim, ja bih bio najsretniji kad ovo što radim uopšte ne bi bilo potrebno, ali dok je, onda hvala bogu neka bude tako da eto mogu. Zato sam ja i u biti došao u Srbiju jer moja druga kuca koju smo usvojili je bila iz Novog Sada i tako sam se ja eto i upoznao sa Novim Sadom. I onda jednog dana kažem okej pa lepo je, šalješ neki novac, pošalješ nešto hrane ali ove devojke koje su tu one stvarno tvrdi posao rade. Sad tako ja hoću da kažem da ipak nešto radim u životu, onda moram nešto da promenim i da idem tamo gde je akcija i da i ja nešto dodam. Najlakše je poslati nešto para i misliti se u šta sam ja napravio. Eto tako da nadam se da je dovoljno ukratko, a ti slobodno pitaj šta god, ja uvek svima kažem ja sam ko otvorena knjiga, nema ništa što me ne možeš pitati tako da slobodno. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Ne ja obično pitam ljude šta su po obrazovanju ne zato što sam ljubopitljiva i to mi je jako važno da znam nego samo da vidimo da uopšte to formalno obrazovanje okej lepo ako imaš neku školu ili štagod ali da stvarno ne mora da ima veze sa onim čime ćemo se baviti u životu. Mislim, kod mene se desilo nešto- ja sam dobila taj 7. kroz 2. stepen, a onda bih vodila firmu koju vodim, ja sam se prekvalifikovala i sad sam 3. stepen. Znači sad sam pekar-poslastičar, nisam više profesor srpskog jezika i književnosti, da. Ovaj, zbog toga, zato što ljudi nekako- i dalje vučemo moja generacija, možda čak i generacija mlađa od mene jednu deceniju, naši roditelji su i dalje nekako u onom starom sistemu. Dakle završiš fakultet, zaposliš se u nekoj državnoj upravi, oženiš se, udaš se – znaš kako to već ide. Tako da to mi je, zbog toga pitam. Ne uopšte mi to nije- 

Miha Matlievski:  Jako slično je u tim našim generacijama i u Sloveniji razmišljanje. Mislim, moja mama je cela nesretna da ja nisam u nekoj firmi i uvek me pita šta će biti sa penzijom i ona prosto ne razume ni šta radim ni kako radim ni ništa od toga, ona samo zna da ja ne radim u nekoj velikoj firmi. Jer ona je radila u banci i ona je sad pri penziji, a ja ko zna šta će sa njenim sinom biti i to je- ona još uvek boluje zbog toga. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Ah, znam, znam. Mislim, znam kako su moji roditelji se hvatali za glavu, kao crno dete tolke knjige si pročitala sad ćeš da mesiš testo. Ali to su neke starije generacije. Ja ne znam odakle da počnem. Znači toliko interesantnih stvari imam sa tobom da razgovaram. Hoćeš da nam kažeš nešto šta je Fail, šta je Fail Coach, zašto se- u jednom trenutku je fail bilo kao- niko nije pričao o tome. A onda u nekom trenutku, na primer pre jedno pet godina je dobio onako baš na važnosti i onda kao ti ako nisi failovao ti kao da nisi ni uspeo. Kao da se malo preokrenulo ogledalo. Hoćeš da nam kažeš nešto o-

Miha Matlievski: Može, može. Može, to mi je baš omiljena tema, ali znaš iskreno kad putuješ po svetu- ja sam i na dosta nekih konferencija bio pozvan da pričam i sve to i Amerika i kad ideš u Silicon Valley, jeste ono dosta pričanja – fail fast, fail forward i sve to ali samo kad se to ne dešava tebi. Znači u teoriji je svima jako jasno, ali da ti to pounutraniš da stvarno imaš ono što ja zovem healthy relationship with failure i da stvarno prihvatiš failure za ono što jeste, a to je jedna fantastična lekcija i fantastična prilika za neki rast i- doći ćemo još malo dublje u to, to ipak traje. I to nije tako lako ljudima. Kažem, dok se to događa drugima onda je lako o tome pričati i dok se to nešto tebi- i opet, može biti to mali fail. U radio sam rižoto pa mi nije uspela. Znaš. Jebiga. A kad je to neki baš ono fail na kojeg imaš vezane neke jako pozitivne emocije da bi se nešto desilo tebi pozitivno i onda se to ne desi, e onda mislim stvarno moraš jako istrenirati tu neku svoju unutrašnjost i tu ide više stvari – mindfullnessa, emotional intelligence, do samog razumevanja, do ono da znaš da kulminiraš i logiku i emocije, do kako radiš fokus- pogled na stvari. Ali šta je uopšte Failure Ed, možda s tim dobro početi. Kad mi radimo nešto stoti put, onda mi smo to već savladali i to je nešto što je u našoj zoni comfort-a, mislim komforno nam je. Toliko puta smo to već odradili i to mi već automatski odradimo. E tu jako teško ćemo failovati jel tako. Ali mi pogotovo poduzetnici, ali ne samo poduzetnici nego recimo i ovi koji su vrhunske atlete, i tako dalje, mi svi imamo neke crazy big dreams and goals. Znači hoćemo na Mars, hoćemo ovo, hoćemo ono. Znači to su stvari koje još nismo savladali. To je nešto novo što tek imamo savladati. I znači kad mi radimo nešto novo prvi, drugi put – to je nešto što je van naše zone comfort-a. I sad kad radimo nešto što je van zone comfort-a, onda nije 50:50 da li ćemo uspeti ili fejlovati nego verovatno je 80:20 ili 90:10 da ćemo verovatno failovati prvih par puta pre nego što skontamo kako nešto dobro i pravilno odraditi da bi bilo okej. I sad ako pogledamo sa strane- sad, ne dešava se to nama – svima nama je logično da ako želimo stvari koje su van komfort zone, mi moramo testirati, probavati puno nekih stvari jer jedino na taj način ćemo doći do onoga što želimo na drugoj strani komforta. I to je cela logika iza toga zašto je fail tako dobra stvar. Jer bez tog fail-a nećemo doći do onoga što radi. Mislim, ako pogledamo medicinu evo sad ova korona. Pa verovatno su probali hiljade nekih varijacija te vakcine dok su našli ovih par koje rade. Znači oni su failovali ko zna koliko puta sa pogrešnim sastojcima dok su našli ovu koja je prava. E sad kad u sve to- dok je to logika onda to sve još nekako ide. I na primer ti ljudi koji su u RND su obično tehnički ljudi koji su više logički nego emotivni. E sad dođemo do emocija i jako brzo zaboravimo da svaka stvar prvo postoji proces pa tek onda je neki cilj. I mi zaboravimo da pogledamo proces, mi zaboravimo da pogledamo da smo možda uradili neki korak u procesu pogrešan. Ili da smo imali neki bottleneck kojeg nismo videli pa zato nismo postigli cilj. Nego mi se fokusiramo na taj cilj pa sad e ja to nisam postigao, ja ću da plačem, lego kocke na drvo i ja ne silazim dole. I tu onda stvari postaju jako zakomplikovane jer onda te emocije potegnu još veće emocije, onda nama krene taj negativni razgovor sam sa sobom koji povuče i negativnu energiju i onda iz tog failure-a krenemo to da ja sam failure i tu onda loše stvari mogu da se dešavaju-

Sanja Milosavljević: Aha, izvini- izvini što te prekidam, ali kao da kad slušam druge ljude kao da identifikuju sebe sa neuspehom. Znači ne kao nije mi uspeo taj poduhvat ili pokušaj nego identifikuju- kažu ja sam neuspešan, a u stvari neuspešna je možda samo ta jedna proba proizvoda ili usluge ili čega kod. Pa, jesmo li tromi? Ovako, pogotovo što znam da imaš iskustvo rada sa ljudima iz inostranstva i imaš iskustvo rada sa ljudima ovde iz regiona, jesmo li mi ovde u regionu tromi?

Miha Matlievski: Ne. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Koliko smo- koliko nam je lako da se promenimo? Koliko lako prihvatamo, na primer- koliko lako tvoji klijenti prihvataju sugestije, savete…nema veze što su ti se obratili i javili, da li postoji ona unutrašnja- unutrašnji otpor ka promeni. 

Miha Matlievski: Ja ne bih rekao da je ovde bilo šta nešto jako drugačije. Mislim, obično slušam iste priče. Na primer kad pričaš sa ljudima iz Azije, e oni Amerikanci, vi u Evropi, vama je sve lakše. Onda kad pričaš ovde u Evropi – e Amerikancima je lakše, ovima u Aziji je lakše. Kad pričaš sa Amerikancima opet oni sve isto jako slične priče vrte i to je više od čoveka do čoveka zavisi. Neka moja teorija je da što više si spustio pain da te nešto zabolelo, te otvoreniji ćeš biti da nekog saslušaš i da budeš otvorenije glave e ajde da probam možda šta mi ova osoba kaže. A imaš i te ljude koji imaju neki zdraviji mindset. To su dosta često ljudi koji su trenirali neke sportove jer u sportu je sasvim klasika da ti imaš celu ekipu oko sebe i coacheve i mentore i ovo i ono i masere i ne znam šta i njima je logično. A u poduzetništvu ne znam zašto ali svi mi poduzetnici- ja sam bio isto kriv – mislimo da moramo sve sami i svi smo unikatni i ono što se nama dešava se samo nama dešava i samo mi imamo ne znam šta. I onda kad dodaš u miks još socijalne mreže pa ideš na Facebook ili Instagram pa vidiš kako svi postuju kako je njima lepo, e tek onda misliš jao stvarno, ja ništa ne znam, meni se sve loše dešava i onda tako sam sebe uvatiš u taj neki cycle gde ne možeš da se izvučeš iz toga. Ali to mislim ja vidim ovde dosta ljudi koji su jako otvoreni na ovo što ja radim, a vidiš i dosta ljudi koji ne, to nije, to je- pričate prazne priče, ovo ono, nađu se tu uvek svugde svakakvi ljudi. Svako treba neko svoje vreme. Mislim, ja da nisam bio tako tvrd koliko sam bio ja ne bih kroz one moje failure prošao, nego bih tada možda pitao nekoga. Ali ja sam bio ono ajmo do kraja i zato mi je sve propalo i zato sam u jednom samom danu došao iz plusa ogromnog na minus od skoro pet miliona dolara. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E to mi je interesantno, jel možeš malo da ispričaš? Zato što- onako malo je filmska priča. Ta kako si sa ne znam velikog plusa otišao u baš dubiozu. Nije ono kao 100-200 hiljada nego baš je.

Miha Matlievski: Pa nije ni to nešto filmsko. Ja svakome kažem vidi, ja mislim da mi treba 5-10 minuta da ti pomognem da ti isto probaš ako misliš da ti treba takva škola. Nije to uopće teško napraviti. Vidi, pre 2008., 2009.- 2008. je kriza krenula u Americi, a onda 2009., mislim da je to bio neki septembar je to došlo u Evropu mislim baš nekim trumom. I pre toga, slično kao pre korone. Ekonomija je išla samo ovako. Tada, ako si bio malo poduzetnika ti si šetao po ulici a banke su bacale kredite na tebe. Jako je bilo lako doći do kredita. Lako je bilo i ako si malo bio dobar u prodaji, lako je bilo i prodati, kupovalo se ovo, ono, nekretnine su išle gore. I svi mi tada smo zaboravili da posle svake ovakve gore dođe i kriza. A ja pogotovo do tada još nisam iskusio ovakve krize. Ja nikad nisam ni razmišljao da će to nekad da ide dole. I tada šta krene, malo prvo kreneš i vidiš ide, pa još malo pa ide i onda kreneš te poluge da- znaš, e pa neću sad samo sa svojim kapitalom, sad ću nek mi dobavljači kreditiraju, ajdemo mi na veliko. Nema veze ako ovde nije profitabilno, samo da je cash flow, kasnije će biti kada dođemo do nekih cifara. I tako sam ja došao do jednog projekta nekretninskog blizu Ljubljane a poznavao sam neke ljude, bila mi je pružena prilika, ja idem na banku, banka mi je dala 100% finansiranja. Samo sam morao da potpišem da će onda imati oni ekskluzivno pravo da nude kredite ljudima koji će kupovati od mene stanove, tako neka je bila priča- 

Sanja Milosavljević: Pa dobro, takav model postoji i ovde. To je- da, to je. 

Miha Matlievski: Da, da. I sad, na polugama ovde, na polugama onde i onda dođe ta kriza i odmah sve stane. Mislim, i svaka kriza- znaš, ako ti imaš zdrave temelje preguraš onih šest meseci i onda se očisti ono što je trulo. Ali problem je bio što kako sam ja bio u leveragima i sve ono, ja sam bio ono trulo. Ja kad pričam ljudima dosta često spominjem da graditi biznis je kao graditi kuću. Prvo temelj pa onda gore, što bolji temelj to više možeš gore. A ja temelje nisam nikakvih imao. I moje kuće, moje firme su bile kao ona prva kućica iz one priče o tri praseta. I to kad je malo zaduvalo šta se meni desilo. Jedna od mojih firmi je bila u tom projektu nekretnina. Moja nabavna cena kad sakupiš sve – i projektiranje, i izgradnju i parcelu i sve to, ja bi došao na nekih 1850eur po kvadratu. A prodajna cena u tom delu je bila od 2400 za garsonjere ili kako već- ne, 2400 za velike stanove pa čak do 3000 za garsonjere po kvadratu. Znači, ja  bih lepo zaradio, samo što je bio problem- ja sam to krenuo pola godine pre nego što je krenula krize. I mi smo zakrenuli, ja sam već godinu dana ranije platio ne znam koliko stotina hiljada eura projektantima. Pa mi smo već krenuli jamu da kopamo, pa da pravimo skele- ja sam pola kredita već uložio i onda odjednom bam nekretnine pale i u onom momentu je bilo 1.500 max što bih ja mogao da postignem na tržištu cenu. Pa sad eto ti vidiš da je tu negativna razlika. I pošto to nije bilo- banka je bila ocenila da to nema šanse. Ajde preguraćemo par meseci, pa će biti bolje nego e ovo će trajati dok se to postavi jedno, drugo. Mi nismo više spremni, a ja sam iz svih svojih firmi, ja kao Miha- naravno ja nisam u taj projekat ušao da bih nekoga pokrao. Ja sam ušao sa celim srcem.  I sad ja sam- oni kad su mi dali kredit, oni su rekli, aha ti si vlasnik još ove firme, ove firme, ove firme – potpisaćeš, potpisaćeš. A u Sloveniji imaš još jednu stvar- ne menica, jer menica kad je ja pošaljem na banku ako ti nemaš na računu, banka mi vrati. Ne, banka briše menicu i to je to i onda moram ja na sud. A mi imamo još jednu drugu stvar koja se kaže zadužnica. A koja je skoro kao sudsko izvršenje. Znači ako ti i nemaš na računu, ja ti onda blokiram račun. I oni su tako meni dali na sve moje firme tu izvršnicu, koliko je bilo para gore povukli su, šta je dolazilo povukli su, ono što je dolazilo a ja finansiran od strane dobavljača, umesto da ide dobavljačima išlo banki, ja dobavljače nisam mogao platiti. Pošto nisam mogao dobavljače i radnike platiti oni su zaustavili i tako mi je domino efekt srušio sve. Ali kažem, nema ništa filmsko u tome, nego stvarno ja nisam imao nekih pravih temelja, nisam znao- ne znam ništa o korporativnom strukturiranju, kako zaštitiš ovo kako ono, kako razdvojiš projekte. Kod mene je to sve bilo jedno. I ja ono sa srcem, junački…ali eto.

Sanja Milosavljević: Pogreši čovek, nije ovaj- filmski mi je zato što slušala sam jedan drugi tvoj razgovor gde si ti baš vrlo otvoreno i iskreno govorio, što je jako retko. Znači svi se pozivaju na iskrenost ali vrlo retko baš tako hoće na taj način da iskreno govori o stanjima kroz koja je prolazio, o iskušenjima, o depresiji, o suicidu, o svemu onome što je kao što si i sam malopre rekao kao da se dešava drugome a ne meni. Ono, nikada sebi ne bih poželeo tako nešto. E u tom smislu znaš- priča počinje kao eto ja sam hteo da gradim neki stambeni objekat a onda sam završio tako što nisam imao ni za- ne znam- ni za kanap.

Miha Matlievski: Sanja, samo na brzinu – to je bilo par godina kasnije. Ja sam tad već se izvukao, prošao one ideje samoubistva i pokušaje i sve te stvari. Ja sam bio u tom neformalnom iz obrazovanju deo ovog CEED. Mi- imali ste i vi to u Beogradu neko vreme, mislim da je bilo i to podržano od strane američke ambasade nekih američkih fondova, ali u Srbiji nije dosta dugo trajalo. Ali ja sam bio u Sloveniji dosta isto u tome i onda kada su prošle sve te krize, ovaj koji je bio neki moderator koji je radio sve te događaje, on je hteo da radi jedan događaj o failurima. I on je tako zvao one za koje je znao da su prošli nešto i niko nije hteo od onih poznatijih da priča o tome. I on tako dođe do mene i ja ne znam šta mi bilo, ja kažem da. E sad. Ja rekao da, mi zabukiramo. Kako je to dolazilo do tog događaja stvar, mene panika. Šta ću ja sad- kome ja, šta ja, al onda mene bilo sramota da mu kažem e izvini ja ipak ne bih. Jer kad sam dao reč, onda- i sad ja- dolazi taj događaj i ja već krenem kako da ovo sad malo ispoliram, kako da ovde krene tu PR, kako da objasnim, ju pa to je bila država kriva, bili su ovi pa oni krivi. Kad ja uđem na taj događaj a tu puno nekih- oni su to najavljivali a ja nisam znao ko će doći. Puno ljudi koji su bili celo ono vreme uključeni u stvari. Koji su me znali, koji su bili moji neki bivši dobavljači i tako dalje. E onda nije bilo više prostora za malo poliranje i laganje i sve te stvari. I ništa, ja drmnem dva puna viskija, rekoh šta bude, bude, idem na binu i najiskrenije i ono sve kako je. Jer znao sam oni znaju sve šta je bilo, kako je bilo, ako sad probam nešto još tu da- mislim ono, kad to tek neće dobro završiti. I šta se onda desilo? Desilo se to ja sve ispričam sve te stvari, kad ovi ljudi koji su mene i tužili i zvali- znaš, to nisu bili pozivi u ja ću da te tužim nego u šta ćemo mi tebi na noge da stavimo pa ajmo u Savu i tako. Mislim bilo je tu pretnji ovakvih i onakih. Kad su ti ljudi došli do mene i ono, ruka, hej nisam znao šta je bilo, kako je bilo, izvini nije- mislim, kad sam video kako se to sve- al stvarno, ja tad nisam imao šta izgubiti. Ja sam tad išao, ajmo iskreno- 

Sanja Milosavljević: Do kraja.

Miha Matlievski: Da. I kad sam video taj obrat i kad su oni onda krenuli meni da pričaju svoje priče, onda se desila još jedna stvar. Sve to prođe, onda imamo mi networking posle konferencije. Naravno u Sloveniji mora da se popije pivce. I dođe do mene jedna mlada devojka, ona je morala imati tad možda nekih 20-tak godina. Tako čekala je u redu jer je bilo nekoliko ljudi da pričaju samnom i onda ona meni dođe do mene, kaže, znaš Miha, meni je tata- tata nije- tata je bio poduzetnik i slične stvari su mu se dešavale kao tebi, ali mnogo manje cifre. Ali on nije našao taj svoj vibe u tom momentu i išao je naravno do kraja i ubio se. I kaže cela porodica nikad nismo mogli da razumemo. Jer nisu bile to opet takvi problemi. Nije bilo to toliko teško. Mogli smo opet nešto da napravimo, da izguramo, da ovo da ono. Kaže, e sad kad sam slušala tebe šta je tebe teralo- jer kod mene nije bilo to da ja pobegnem od stvari. Nego problem je bio- moja glava je bila 24/7, to je bilo kao nuklearni reaktor. I ti si samo želiš malo tišine, da malo odmoriš. Jer dođe petak, ti do ponedeljka si u anksioznosti, depresiji u panici da dolazi ponedeljak ujutro. Ja sam- trudio sam se da ne zaspim, samo da bih produžio dane. Jer znao sam kad se legne, osam sati bam – probudiš se, opet u isto sranje. I kaže sad kad sam tebe saslušala, prvi put da mogu da razumem. I kad mi je ona to rekla, e tad je počeo Fail Coach. Jer tad u tom momentu ko da sam- ne znam ni da objasnim, ali u tom momentu sam skontao da ova moja priča- ni meni nije bilo lako pričati o tome, nit jako volim- mislim, ono, non stop proći kroz one stvari. Plus, ja sam to preradio i za mene je to neka prošlost koja- koju cenim, znam da su mi trebale te lekcije jer ne bih bio danas to što jesam, ali nije mi potreba po tom da o tome pričam. Ali u tom momentu je bilo ono, ja moram o tome pričati iskreno, otvoreno, jer ovakvi ljudi moraju to da čuju. I to nije priča o meni i za mene i za moj ego, nego na taj način mogu drugima da pomognem. I odkako sam krenuo ja sam samo prošle godine imao ja mislim oko 300 intervjua za razne podkaste, jedne druge i takve stvari. Non stop mi se javljaju ljudi iz celog sveta. Pa pre nekih par meseci mi se javila jedna devojka koju nikad u životu nisam upoznao. Ona je negde iz bliskog istoka, živi u Manili, čula je negde moj podkast pre dve godine- ne, 2018. i ona mi je rekla obratila sam ti se jer želim da znaš da mi je tvoja priča pomogla, jer sam bila ovako blizu da i ja možda nešto uradim. I kad ti se tako javljaju i kad čuješ te stvari- i kažem, nije uopšte za mene, ako bude neko čuo ovo od tvojih slušatelja, ako nekome ovo malo pomogne. Ipak, bila je ova korona, i jedno i drugo, ljudi jesu u krizama, išli su kroz jako teške stvari. Ako će ovo jednoj osobi da pomogne, e onda smo mi napravili svoje i za to vredi ispričati i još jedanput, i još jedanput i još jedanput.

Sanja Milosavljević: Jao, slažem se. Divno. Lepo si to rekao. Ovaj, hoćeš da nam kažeš nešto- spomenuo si, ali volela bih sad malo da uđemo u to. Šta je emocionalna inteligencija. Jel dovoljno da pročitamo onu jednu Goldenovu knjigu ili- kako da, na primer- kako da se nosimo sa tim i kako nam emocionalna inteligencija pomaže u vođenju posla? I još, molim te samo još jedno pitanje – da li postoji neka razlika između žena i muškaraca? Eto, klijenti su ti i muškarci i žene – na koji način radiš sa jednim ili sa drugim?

Miha Matlievski: Pa generalno sa ženama je lakše raditi. Pogotovo- 

Sanja Milosavljević: U kom smislu? Izvini, u kom smislu?

Miha Matlievski: Ja najviše čak volim raditi sa- one se zovu Mompreneurs. Mame, koje vole da- zašto? Pa žene su mnogo više navikle da nekad treba uraditi i neka sranja, ali ih treba uraditi. A mi muškarci bi nonstop hvatali krivine. Mi ne bi menjali pelene, mi ne bi ustajali u sred noći, a žene stvarno su mnogo više navikle na to. A kad oformiš poverenje, mnogo veća je verovatnoća da žene kad ti veruju da će uraditi i ono što im je teško. Jer biti entrepreneur nije da ćeš raditi samo ono što je lako. Nekad moraš uraditi i one stvari koje se moraju, a nisu ti najbliže. E to je jedna stvar. A druga stvar je to što- znaš ono za žene uvek je “o, one su emocionalne, one su iracionalne” i većina žena je nekako okej sa tim. Kao okej, mi žene smo emocionalne. Mnogo lakše je emocionalnoj osobi dodati logiku nego osobi koja misli da je logična, a mi nismo logična bića, mi smo svi emotivna bića samo je pitanje koliko smo to potisnuli dole. Muškarci. Znaš ono, moraš biti muško, ne priča se o tim stvarima. A i onda se čak sami sebe ubede ne, ne, ja sam logična osoba. Ne, nisi logičan nego si samo potisnuo stvari. I mnogo je teže takvu osobu dodati taj emotivni deo. A kad pogledaš – marketing su emocije, prodaja su emocije, leadership ogromno emocije. Znači ako ti nisi in touch with your emotions, jako ćeš teško one stvari. Zato kažem, zato je sa ženama mnogo lakše raditi i to da su mnogo više navikle da treba u životu nekad napraviti stvari koje ne voliš, ali znaš zašto jer te čeka neka nagrada na kraju. A mi muškarci, mi bi nonstop krivine hvatali i tamo gde ih nema. Zato je mnogo lakše sa ženama. A sad kad kažeš emotivna inteligencija, mislim pogotovo kad pričamo o entrepreneurshipu, o leadershipu, to ti je jedna najosnovniji soft skill koga moraš kao lider imati. Sad problem sa soft skillovima je da ne možeš da ih naučiš iz knjige, nego moraš da ih prakticiraš. Mislim, ti pročitaj prvu knjigu, tako se počinje, ali onda je implementacija koja je mnogo sporija nego kod hard skills. Hard skills pročitaš knjigu, imaš tamo neke primere, ideš, otkucaš šta nešto i nešto si napravio i tu možeš da gradiš dalje. E sad emocionalna inteligencija  je jedna od najpopularnijih tema za koju mene kompanije najčešće uzimaju. I ona ima četiri stuba. I svi bi preskočili prva tri. Znači, prvi je self-awareness. Biti…kako bi to prevela na srpski, da budeš…

Sanja Milosavljević: Svestan samoga sebe. Razumeš i prihvataš i svestan si samoga sebe. 

Miha Matlievski: Da, da, ali da bi postigao self-awareness nije dovoljno da ti sam samog sebe pogledaš u ogledalo. Nego ono što smo mi videli je da 9 od 10 ljudi sebe ne vidi ni približno tako kako ga vide ljudi iz njihove okoline. E tu treba onda imati malo i muda i malo ono biti humble da ideš do tvojih kolega, do suradnika, do šefova, do podređenih, do rodbine i da ih ubediš: ne, ja stvarno hoću da čujem kolko god bolno i teško, kažite mi, jer ja stvarno želim sam sebe da upoznam i da razumem samog sebe. I tu dosta ljudi pada jer prosto ne žele čuti istinu. Ali-

Sanja Milosavljević: Izvini što te prekidam, ali ima jedna vežba. Nedavno mi je gostovala psihološkinja koja je baš govorila o tome. Ima jedna najbazičnija vežba – da staneš nag ispred ogledala i da sebe gledaš. I stvarno shvatiš gabarite svog tela, ako ništa drugo. Jer mi kao da nismo za početak svesni ni ove ljušture koja nam je okolo, a kamoli da budemo svesni onoga kakvi smo kao osoba. To je baš kao- to je najbazičnija vežba. Staneš ispred ogledala i koliko god da ti je neprijatno gledaš nagog sebe u ogledalu. Kao prva neka tačka. 

Miha Matlievski: Da, da, ali ovo self-awareness mislim stvarno to je journey. Nije samo nešto danas sednem, napravim par vežbi i to je to. To okej. Na primer ja kad radim sa liderima to je par meseci. Ja kad sam krenuo sa sobom da radim to mi je trajalo mislim do tri godine neki journey. I još uvek sam na tom journey, još uvek ja pesimist koliko i čujem od drugih i sve to, ja bih rekao da sam možda već postigao nekih na 90% self-awareness, što je jako jako mnogo ali mislim što ideš bliže ka 100% to je teže, ti neki detalji i ti- prvih 80% je uvek najlakše uraditi od svega. Tako da što ideš dublje to postaje teže. I to je journey. Krenemo sad prvo je self-awareness. Onda drugo je self-managment. Da menedžuješ sebe, svoje emocije, logiku, da se balansiraš, ovo, ono, da kad nešto kažeš to i učiniš i tako dalje. Da onda dođemo do social-awareness, znači kad ja uđem u neki prostor da znam da prepoznajem energije, odnose, ko s kome šta kako, do koga da se obratim i tako dalje. E tek zadnja stvar je onda managing other people. A ljudi bi da preskoče sve ove tri i da idu direktno da menadžiraju. Tako da emotional intelligence- 

Sanja Milosavljević: A, izvini-

Miha Matlievski: Da, izvoli.

Sanja Milosavljević: Jel se neko- jel neko prirodno takav? Jesi sretao ljude koji su spontano i prirodno takvi bez nekog preterano velikog rada na njima. Mislim u redu, uvek može malo da se šteluje tu fine-tuning, ali jesi susretao ljude koji su tako prirodno dobri lideri i imaju visoko razvijenu emocionalnu inteligenciju? 

Miha Matlievski: Mislim, to je samo zato što su možda neki rad ranije odradili. To nije da si se ti sad rodio pa si emotivno inteligentan. Neki su ranije krenuli da rade na tome, i neznajući. Jer znaš ta emotivna inteligentnost je malo i psihologije, malo i empatije, malo i kakav si po prirodi i tako dalje. I neki ljudi su malo ranije već u to krenuli pa kad ih upoznaš oni su već na visokom nivou. Ali nije to sad nešto da se neko rodio takav.

Sanja Milosavljević: Znaš što, to te pitam zato što stalno postoji kao ta neka priča da se neko rađa kao preduzetnik ili se to postaje. Jel je to neka veština koja može da se savlada ili neko eto ima predispozicijiu a neko stvarno mora da se okozi da bi postao uspešan preduzetnik. E u tom smislu te pitam – da li se neko tako- da li se rađa preduzetnik ili se postaje preduzetnik?

Miha Matlievski: Mislim, sad- različiti smo ljudi i naravno nekima ide komunikacija bolje, nekima lošije. Neki su malo više psiholozi tako već po prirodi, neki malo manje. Tako da naravno neki imaju malo bolje predispozicije- mada, znaš kako. Oni koji imaju malo bolje predispozicije onda oni obično još više hvataju krivine pa ih to onda tek lupi po glavi. A moje iskreno mišljenje je da kad naletim na nekoga ko nema tih nekih predispozicija, ali je borac, na duge staze će pobediti prema onome- ti možeš ako imaš nešto malo predispozicija na početku će ti biti lakše, pa izmigoljiš se malo i znaš ono tu nešto prodaš, tu nešto prodaš, ali na duže staze nikako. Na duže staze ti je sistem, procesi, konsistentnost. Jer oni koji su malo po prirodno malo bolji, oni su takođe ono – e kako ćemo, lako ćemo. I samo hvataš krivine i onda te to lupi po glavi. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E sad, stigli smo do tog četvrtog stuba. Šta je uopšte- ko je lider? Kako se postaje lider? Ja znam neke ljude koji su na primer na baš visokim pozicijama na velikim korporacijama ili vode neke svoje manje korporativne biznise gde sam ja u fazonu jao ljudi ja se vama divim, kako oni to rade- meni to izgleda kao reka, bez zastoja, bez ono- znaš, kao neka lepa struja koja teče bez napora to rade. A kako- ko je lider? Kako se postaje dobar lider? 

Miha Matlievski: Pa mislim…sad kako se postaje. Dobar lider se postaje kroz jako mnogo rada na sebi koji nikad ne prestaje. Ja uvek kažem da po meni definicija lideršipa- jer menjalo se to jako mnogo u poslednjih par godina. Ako ti pogledaš pre 30 godina, 20 godina, direktori ili onaj pravi balkanski direktor to je bilo sasvim nešto drugo, ali tada ljudi nisu imali mogućnosti kao što imaš danas. Danas ti možeš biti ovde iz Novoga Sada, radiš ne znam kao računovođa u nekom servisu, ovaj te nešto malo mobinguje i tako dalje, ti kažeš aj vidite aj ćao, odradiš jedan kurs bookkeepinga i kreneš da nudiš svoje usluge za 20-30 dolara po satu Amerikancima. Znači, sva ova globalizacija i tehnologija i razne stvari su jako mnogo promenile kako ljudi imaju mnogo više mogućnosti. I taj stari način leadershipa gde si ti ljude držao zaključane ne radi više. I zbog toga što ne radi više se i samim tim lideršip promenio i ono što ja danas zovem lideršip je servant leadership. Ti nisi na- ne da nisi na vrhu piramide nego je ta piramida obrnuta. Ti si ovde dole i ti si tu, ali opet to neki pogrešno razumeju. To ne znači da si ti sad ono svima sve na raspolaganju, nikad nećeš ništa udariti po stolu, nego balansiranje pravilno između toga. I te meke vrline su postale mnogo više dominantne. Znači empatija, emotivna inteligencija, mindfulness, komunikacijske vrline, rešavanje problema, vrednosti, integritet i tako dalje. E i to te stvara liderom. Mislim lider nije to da si to stavio na vizit kartu. Mislim, daću ti jedan super primer. Prošle godine u januaru sam krenuo kao coach raditi sa jednom malom firmicom iz Novog Sada koja je imala tad 6 vlasnika. Mislim još uvek je njih 6 vlasnika. I prva stvar je bila ne možemo mi imati tu demokratije jer oni su za svaku sitnicu – gde će WC papir da kupe – trebali tri sata da ćaskaju uz kafu. To nije bila neodluka ni ništa. I onda prva stvar smo postavili strukturu. I tu se izdvojio jedan od njih. Mislim, moj je bio predlog kad sam napravio sa svima njima intervjue, ko već ima najviše poluga da bi bio pravi da probamo što više poluga da iskoristimo a ne da sad krenemo da bude direktor neko ko mora sve od nule da nauči. A ovaj već ima dosta nekih stvari od ranije naučenih. I ja prva stvar koju sam mu rekao je vidi, lepo je na vizit kartu staviti da si direktor, CEO, slažem se, ali veruj mi, tvoja će biti najteža. I veruj mi da za par meseci ćeš reći iju mi šta mi je ovo trebalo. Tako da taj lideršip nije više ono što je bio – ja sam sad gazda i ja kažem ovako i ovako. Mislim, to još uvek radi u nekim industrijama gde možda imaš neke ljude koji još nisu shvatili internet i kako. Znaš, ljude koji nemaju tih veština modernijih. Na primer ljudi iz nekih proizvodnji i tako. Tamo još uvek možeš da vladaš onim starim načinom. A ovo ostalo danas to je sasvim drugačije. A ti- te meke vrline i te stvari, to je ono što mora svaki lider- i to je konstantan rat, to nikad ne završava. I liderstvo nije nešto što ti kažeš e ja sam lider, nego liderstvo znači da se ponašaš kao lider i zaslužiš to da ti ljudi kažu da si lider. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Kako su se- interesantno mi je to kad god ima mnogo suvlasnika u jednoj firmi to barem ovde na našim terenima zna da bude dosta čupavo zato što se ovde ono isposvađaju se, ne mogu da se dogovore od tog mikromenadžmenta do tog makromenadžmenta. Kako ti je prošla ta firma? Jesu prihvatili, jesu se konsolidovali-

Miha Matlievski: Da.

Sanja Milosavljević: Jesu napravili- odlično, svaka čast. Mislim, svaka čast.

Miha Matlievski: Fantastično. U godinu dana su porasli za otprilike 250%. 

Sanja Milosavljević: U, svaka čast. A jel su imali već postavljene procese, sve ono…

Miha Matlievski: Ne, ništa. Sve smo to skoro iz nule odradili, ali vidi se ta jačina mnogo njih pravilno preraspoređenih, svako da se zna ko treba da uradi šta do kada. I nije bilo lako, ali mlada je ekipa, imali su energiju, imali su volju, i evo baš sad radimo case study iz te priče kako bismo ga mogli prezentirati našim klijentima sad kad krećem malo više tu na Balkanu da radim. Jer znaš kako, ja kad krećem moje uspehe iz Evrope, Amerike da tu nekako objasnim, svi nekako “pa dobro, to je Amerika”, a baš zato hoću iz njih da napravim case study, da kažem eto ti – firma iz Srbije koja je išla od tu ka tu. Sad smo baš izvadili te neke grafikone i to – od zaposlenih, od prometa, od broja projekta, do ovo do ono, sve je ono eksponentno na gore. A tako da- ali svugde je isto, svugde kad su suvlasnici. Jer ljudi koji idu obično znaš kako je to – ja i ti sednemo, popijemo pivo, dobijemo neku ideju i sad mi se napalimo na tu ideju i mi ne kažemo ajde mi prvo da popričamo šta ćeš ti, šta ću ja, koliki je udeo, shareholder, šta je u poslu, kako ćemo to kompenzirati kako ćemo ovo. Znači ništa od toga ne uradimo. I mi samo krenemo. I radimo, radimo, radimo jer tako nemaš rezultata, nije još para i to samo mi smo svi da radimo. E onda dođu pare e onda još krenu problemi. Pa ja sam u prodaju pa da ne bi mene bilo ne bi mi ništa bilo, a ti kažeš e pa da mene nije bilo to što si ti prodao ne bi ko imao da odradi. I onda krene. E onda još kad se umešaju žene ili muževi i onda znaš još kući ti ono “pa ti nonstop radiš, pa ti ovo, pa ti ono, pa tvoj je deo toliko vredan…” e onda krenu problemi. Mislim, ja imam jedan od programa koji radim dosta često jer imam mnogo tih situacija sa više aktivnih vlasnika. Znači velika je razlika ako recimo ja i ti kažemo e, aj mi sad da stavimo svaki po 100 hiljada, nađemo nekog direktora, mi smo pasivni shareholderi, jednom godišnje izglasamo koliko profit da uzmemo iz firme i to je to ćao – vidimo se jednom godišnje. To je jedna stvar obično, ali na početku ljudi nemaju tu mogućnost i onda su svi u svemu i to nose kapica koliko hoćeš u toj firmi. I imamo baš trening za shareholdere. Gde idemo kroz sve ono – koje su tvoje- šta moraš, koliko moraš, kako se podeli to u firmi, na firmi, kakva je komunikacija, kakvi sastanci, znači to je baš program kao trening tri meseca gde prođemo sve, sve, sve kako se i kompanijski organizovati, koji ugovori ti trebaju, kako postaviti ono misija, vizija, prednosti kompanijska kultura i sve te stvari da stvarno imamo nešto da kažemo e, sad smo stavili temelj, sad imamo nešto, možemo gore da gradimo. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E, nemamo nažalost još mnogo vremena, a ja bih te pitala još svašta nešto. Jel možeš da nam napraviš neku paralelu pošto si- to si lepo spomenuo na početku, znači imaš iskustvo jednog- jedne velike ekonomske krize koja se desila i svi znamo koliko dugo nam je trebalo da se oporavimo. Mi se u ovom trenutku takođe nalazimo u nekoj vrsti recesije, ovo je uticalo- em se desilo simultano na celom svetu, em je sve uvezano, znači lanci celi su se pokidali. Ne tražim da budeš prorok, ali jel postoji neki dobar scenario? Jel postoji nešto što možemo da iskoristimo znanje iz prethodne te velike krize što je nastala iz bankarskog sistema. Znači nije bila u pitanju prirodna katastrofa, ali logika krize je logika krize – postoje ono koraci, da. Jel možeš da napraviš neku paralelu, jel možeš da nam olakšaš, kao evo ljudi za 3 godine će sve biti super. 

Miha Matlievski: Pa, mislim – verovatno neće biti nešto što će olakšati jer obično ovo ljudi ne žele da čuju. Ali znaš, neke industrije će sada biti u plusu, a neke industrije će biti u jakom minusu. Ni jedna kriza nije kriza za sve ni prilika za sve. E sad, u ovim vremenima je pametno biti pamentan u stilu da daš emocije sa strane i budeš još više logičan nego u zdravim vremenima i pogledaš šta tebi finansijski pokazatelji, ovo ono, kakve su mogućnosti za tvoju industriju, šta se zbiva, da napraviš neki dobar research i onda da  budeš otvoren i za promene ako je potrebno. Mislim, znaš to je ono – Ajnštajn je mislim rekao raditi jedno te isto i očekivati promene- mislim- ali znaš, jako je teško ljudima. Ja sam bio isti, dao si srce i dušu u nešto, doveo do neke tačke i sad kriza lupila. I sad znaš krećeš sa onime e daj bože, e nadam se, e ovo, e ono – ma zaboravi na sve to. Nema tu nadanja i daj božeta i ne znam šta, nego- a ono što je najveća vrednost je ako ste već poduzetnik, ako imate već neku firmu, onda imate i neku klijentelu, imate neku grupu ljudi koja vas prati, koja vas voli, koja vas ceni i tako dalje. Ja to zovem leverage of trust. Jer prodaja i marketing su šta? Ideš kroz know, like, trust. Znači prvo mora neko da te upozna, onda krenu da te likuju i onda kad ti dovoljno nekog poverenja, onda su ljudi spremni da ti daju karticu tj. keš. E sad, graditi iz nule know-like-trust traje. I košta. A ovde već imamo neku grupu ljudi koja već ima neki trust do nas. Iskoristite to. Možda popričajte s tim ljudima. Možda njima treba nešto drugo, pa možete nešto dodati u firmu, promeniti, zameniti, krenuti sa- mislim, nema tu magične one da kažeš e ti si sad turistička agencija, e to će sad da procveta. Jok brate, neće. Mislim, videćemo šta će se sad dešavati sa inflacijama. Videćemo šta će se dešavati sa berzama. Jer ovo kako je berza išla cele godine gore nema nikakve logike sa ekonomijom. E sad, dal će ove državne, narodne banke i sve to uspeti ovo nekako da izmenadžiraju, ko zna. Možda hoće, možda neće. Ja nikad ne želim da ide na lutriju da će se desiti nešto najbolje. Ja uvek idem da će se desiti najlošije, a uvek se desi onda ono negde između, ali ja sam uvek spreman i na najlošije. A može se nam desiti nekretninska kriza. Neki u Americi već pričaju o njoj. I tako dalje. Znači mi smo možda sada- ne da smo na- mislim, možda smo mi blizu kraja korone, ali možda smo mi sad na početku jedne velike još dodatno ekonomske krize. I dobar poduzetnik nije poduzetnik koji si zacrta neki plan i onda je sve ide korak po korak. Dobar poduzetnik je onaj koji zna da pliva sa svim tim i kad vidiš da ovde ne ide, onda ajmo ovo, ajmo ovo, ajmo ovako. Ajmo onako. I sad naravno, neko ko je kupio restoran, gradio taj restoran celo vreme…njemu napraviti onu odluku i reći ne, ja ne vidim da će ovo ići napred. Zaustavljam. Šta smo izgubili, izgubili smo, možda će nam već preostati neki plus i krećemo u nešto novo. Znam. Nije lako. Ali nažalost, kažem. Ne žele ljudi obično čuti to, ali baš biti u tim momentima jak da ostaviš emocije sa strane, da zaboraviš da je to tvoje dete i ne znam šta, da budeš logičan i natočiš si čistog vina. To je jedna stvar koju mi inače kao firma nudimo, to je due diligence – pregled firme. Gde dođemo- tako i uvek kad krenemo sa coaching sa bilo kojom firmom uvek krenemo prvo sa due dilligencom. I uvek treba natociti cistog vina. I sad ja već znam da poduzetnici kad oni meni kažu šta oni misle o svojoj firmi to je ipak filtrirano kroz njihove emocije i jedno i drugo. Ja moram svoj pregled da obavim sa mojom ekipom i da pogledamo i biznis plan i finansije i industriju i tržište i sve. Znači nema kamenčića u firmi koji ne obrnemo i to je ono baš jaka, jaka analiza. Mislim, meni je  već par ljudi tu u Srbiji reklo da nisu još ni čuli ranije da bi neko lokalni tako nešto nudio, ali po meni je to ono najosnovnije što treba napraviti, iskreno ja mislim da bi to svaka firma morala bar jednom godišnje napraviti kao presek. Da vidiš gde smo, šta smo, kako smo i kud idemo. I da li sa ovim možemo doći tamo ili ne.

Sanja Milosavljević: Joj, ja se slažem, mada ja sam na primer tek neke 2. ili 3. godine vođenja svoje firme naučila da čitam bilans stanja, na primer. Ono, knjigovođa uradi završni račun, preda, a ja kao okej, idemo dalje, kreće nova godina. A tek na primer treće godine sam uzela taj papir i rekla ajde sad polako šta je ova brojka, šta je ova, šta mi to govori, šta mi ovo- na šta mi ovo- šta blinka crveno šta ne blinka crveno. Tako da ima tu dosta treba čovek da se opismenjava dok radi.

Miha Matlievski: Pa vidi, mislim, to je jedna stvar koju ja ne shvatam ni zašto sam ja takav lud bio kakav sam bio. Ali ja sam bio isti, pao u trećoj godini srednje škole i ja sad krećem u poduzetništvo. Majke mi, šta sam ja znao o poduzetništvu. Al da sam bar uzeo neku knjigu, ne znam, za fakultet pa bar da je tako van fakulteta malo pročitam. Znaš, da malo pročitam šta su human resources, šta su finansije, šta je ovo, šta je ono. Firma nije ono samo marketing funnel, malo prodaje i nadajmo se. Mislim, budimo- ali to je opet ova globalizacija, internet i sve to mnogo više ulazi ljudi u poduzetništvo. Ljudi koji nemaju neku edukaciju. Bar da imaš malo teorije. Ni ta teorija nije ništa prema praksi, ali bar da znaš da pogledaš bilans, da ovo da ono. Znaš, pre 30 godina većina ljudi koja je krenula u poduzetništvo ili su bili iz neke škole poduzetničke, ili su bili iz neke familije poduzetničke. A danas mnogo ljudi ulazi u to i kako ćemo, nekako. Ono, ne uzmu si vreme da bi se edukovali šta sve je potrebno. Mislim, to možemo sad satima da pričamo koji su ono- kao što sam pre pomenuo te temelje znaš visija, misija, ovo ono, puno je tih stvari koje idu uz sve to koje treba- mislim, treba. Pre ili kasnije ih moraš odraditi, bolje pre nego kasnije. Jer kad tek firma krene gore i onda još moraš te temelje postavljati e to ti je tek recept za haos. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Da. Recept za haos. Miha, mnogo ti hvala. Mnogo ti hvala na strpljenju. Moram da kažem da si me sačekao celih sat vremena, što nije baš lepo sa moje strane. Tako da stvarno, mnogo sam uživala u našem razgovoru.

Miha Matlievski: Hvala, takođe.

Sanja Milosavljević: Ovaj, nadam se da ćemo se i ovako upoznati da uživam. Dragi ljudi, gledali ste i slušali Mihu i iskreno se nadam da ste uživali, ja jesam. Možete da nas pratite na društvenim mrežama kao što su Facebook, Instagram i možete da se pretplatite na naš YouTube kanal, kucajte #mondopreneur. Budite dobri i dobroga zdravlja i vidimo se za nedelju dana.