EP039: Bojana Obradović, Psychologist and Psychotherapist from Serbia

Sanja Milosavljevic: Good afternoon, good people. My name is Sanja Milosavljević and I am going to be your host for today. You are watching and listening to Mondopreneur podcast. A podcast dedicated to sharing the story of people from all over the world and our region, which mostly focuses on pandemic since it happened to all of us simultaneously at the same time and we can’t identify some current problems in another country or with other people and therefore we share the stories of people from all over the world to see that we are all, more or less, in the same situation. This whole project is supported by US Embassy in Belgrade, Serbia and thanks to them we can do this. My today’s guest comes from belgrade, she is a therapist and her name is Bojana. I am not going to list all the things that Bojana is working on, I will let her tell us something about herself. Hello Bojana, how are you? 

Bojana Obradović: Hello Sanja, fine, thanks for asking.

Sanja Milosavljevic: You are welcome. That is the main question today. Earlier, it was kind of a formal question, and today, when we ask someone how he or she is, we want to hear how this other side is doing. Tell me – I usually ask my guests to introduce themselves. To tell us what is their educational background, in what way their formal education affected their choice of career and whether they have some interesting hobbies. It is not just work, work, work, we need to have a place where we relax or express our creative sides of ourselves.

Bojana Obradović: Okay. I wasn’t expecting this – I like the question. I am a psychologist by education and I practice psychotherapy. At the moment I am working on several modalities, as it suits me the best. I work on a sort of integration and run project “Pričajmo o tome” (Let’s talk), which is a counseling center that helps students. We do various workshops, psychotherapy and lectures, which is very important to me, to provide help regarding mental health. Regarding hobbies, I was thinking, and at the moment I think it would be – plants. I am totally in love with plants and there are a lot of them in my life, at the moment, and besides that I love photography and I love to dance. Nothing professionally, but fulfilling, for me. So, thank you for that question on hobbies. Usually, people don’t ask that nowadays.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I like that question as hobbies show what we don`t want to show to other people, hobby is our own little oasis. It is great, I like to ask that, to hear what people do in their free time. You dancing, that is absolutely great. It is really fulfilling, it is not just physical activity, as dancing is beautiful by its nature. Tell me, how much do we need therapy? Where are we, and when I say we, I think our country and region? Are we afraid to go to therapy? Do we have that stigma that people who go to therapy and ask for help, that something is wrong with them, they are crazy? We use that word “crazy” if a person has some kind of a problem. Yes. So, where are we?

Bojana Obradović: Halfway. I think that we are moving slowly to better and you have noticed it correctly. We have transgenerational prejudice towards therapy. We usually say if there is a member of a family that had a nervous breakdown. It is a common thing. Do you have a weirdo in your family? Earlier, as marriages were arranged in Serbia, most of the time, unfortunately, people will go through family genetics. Were any of the members different, strange. Families would avoid connecting to other families who had a member that wasn’t great. Who isn’t perfect or for god sake, had a problem, people would investigate that. And then we talk about Grandmas that had nervous breakdown. Problem inSerbia is, when we compose a family tree, they usually don’t know what problems their ancestors had. They can’t even find out if they inherited some part of anxiety, if they have a predisposition for depression since there is a biological part to depression, which would help them a lot to feel better about themselves. And then we are society – we are a county of small towns. Belgrade is a center, but most of the cities are small and people have greater prejudices in small towns as everything is known. And people are much more afraid to go to therapy because they will be seen there, and then they will get the label that they are abnormal, and if they are abnormal, the stigma actually starts, in the workplace, the stigma starts in partnerships, not to mention the other members of families that will often create pressure to leave such a partner because people are afraid of genetic inheritance not knowing the truth about mental health and then, various myths start to create. However, what I am noticing regarding my profession – thank you Internet – some people don’t like it, I really appreciate it, I think it brought some positive changes in our society. Thanks to the Internet, more and more people are watching different podcasts, watching different shows, a lot of people are recording on YouTube – foreigners but also our people who started talking about mental health – influencers have started talking about it. And what I have noticed, especially in last two years, you can see how commercials more often use things that addresses mental health. In a way – it is interesting to me, for example – that it was not in the ads before, but you now notice that they are slowly under the influence of that positive wave and change, to talk about it. You will see that the ads have as the content – for example Schweppes had a whole campaign that included messages about mental health and then it slowly became normal for people to do so. And psychology is not a taboo anymore and I hope that we will be like Portugal or Brazil, where it`is said that every person has its own psychiatrist. I would like it as we have a dentist or a doctor, a personal trainer, it is not bad to have a psychotherapist with whom we talk from time to time, check how we are doing, go through a developmental topic and then there is simply no reason for prejudice, those things are healthy and normal.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I agree. Earlier, before we started filming, you said very nicely – as we go to the dentist every six months, to see if we have caries, plak, bad teeth, whatever, and that’s normal for us, we will easily do that. But to go somewhere to check our souls, it is a little bit harder to decide to go, or we go when it is too far gone. And can you please repeat, you put that nicely, when is the bad time to go to therapy? And when should we really go?

Bojana Obradović: Basically, we should always go, but we usually go when it is late. People come to therapy when they reach a bottom. When it is much more challenging not to go to the therapy, than to go. When they have serious problems – before a breakup, before devorce, when they are stuck at faculty, or experience burn out at work, which is serious condition, they come when they are in the stage of clinical depression, when anxiety exhausted them, when they started with medicine therapy and than they come to therapy for fast solutions. Because, they think they will come a couple of times and they will resolve some issues. But it is not like that. Sometimes it is quicker and sometimes slower. But it would be good to develop a culture that therapy is something that is normal and that as soon as you notice some symptoms that are atypical for you – sort of an increased heart rate. Not everything is for a cardiologist, some is for a psychiatrist. So, it would be important to train cardiologists what panic attacks are, to recognize clients who have a problem with stress and anxiety so that these people can talk to us to prevent more serious conditions from occurring. If we develop this kind of culture, I would love it if this was implemented in high schools and colleges. To teach people what mental health is and to go to therapy on time. For example, it happened to us – people come in some adult years, like 30s or 40s and then they find out that they are anxious. So, they don’t know what anxiety is, nobody talks to them about that. They have struggled with themselves all their lives, they have developed serious irrational beliefs that they are defective, that they are missing something, that something is seriously wrong with them because they feel different or are hypersensitive and no one knew to recognize that it is also something that is normal with humans, you just need to act differently, adapt to such children. And they come with distorted pictures of themselves as adults. That can be changed, of course, and if we knew that earlier and taught parents, peers, teachers, professors, we would be doing much better. You told me that you love REBT, that was my first psychotherapy practice.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, I would like it if you could tell us something about that. As you said you work in several modalities, but can you tell us something about that – for me REBT, and you said it yourself, I know people that went through REBT therapy, and results are just great.

Bojana Obradović: REBT is Rational Emotional Behavioural Therapy and I liked it. For example, Albert Ellis, founder of REBT therapy in the United states, went to kindergartens and taught their teachers what emotions are and they worked with kids. For example, it would be a great thing if we could implement something similar in Serbia. Why is this therapy great from my perspective – it brings back a sense of responsibility to individuals. So Albert Ellis loved philosophy and Buddhism a lot, he took us back to the period in time which is, now and here, and in a way he taught us not to blame the state, parents or friends who do not wish us well, but to take responsibility and take care of our own lives. You return to yourself, clean your backyard and you move forward.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Sorry to interrupt you – that saying, to clean our own backyards, it became a phrase that everyone is saying. But is it hard or easy to clean the back yard, or do we see dirt in our neighbor’s backyard rather than our own? How to – that interest me, how can a person recognise if they don`t know, you put that nicely – if nobody explain emotions to them. Those teachers explained emotions to kids. It seems to me that in Serbia, we do not recognize emotions or I not know how to say it in our language – they are separated from themselves. They don’t recognise when something traumatic is happening to them, they don`r recognise emotions, they don’t recognise they are angry. Or that they are furious – like they are not aware of that.

Bojana Obradović: Well, nobody taught us about that.

Sanja Milosavljevic: That’s true, I agree. And how can a person, if he/she has a lack of knowledge, how to understand that he/she really needs help, or how to understand that a REBT can help him/her?

Bojana Obradović: It seems to me that a lot has become accessible through movies and people through series, especially the younger generations, experience therapy as an Okay place, as a place to meet yourself or a place where you will improve. And you notices it nicely – we are not connected to our emotions. Our country is not famous for that. We like – remember the high school and Death of Jugovic`s mother song, we love that drama, we love pathos, we love to self sacrifice, poor us, it is always difficult to us. We have that culturological thing that we love to suffer and that is our collective burden. Guilt, pain, being a scapegoat, bad things are happening to you. I WW, what has happened, it is a set up for Serbs. And then what happens – when you have a whole transgenerational experience that something bad always done to us and that we can never be responsible for our own lives, and we were not responsible, it is the Turks, various others – history has sent a lot of those messages. And we entered the 21. century where we can, maybe, be responsible, but nobody taught us that. Our grandmas and grandpas were not taught about that, our parents – II WW ended, many people lost their lives. We are a generation that were born during Tito’s time and now freedom comes. Then our millenal comes, and he wants to be free, and what happens? I would like to be responsible, but I don’t know how to be responsible because my parents lived in a certain state system, they got jobs after graduation – we don’t have role models. We are suddenly in between west and east, our past and our future, we want to change but we lack resources and we don’t have predispositions. So, I have to defend our generations because they were not educated enough. But when people come to therapy, cleaning your backyard means understanding what belongs to you, what belongs to the past, what our ancestors bring us, what they in some way created through various messages they sent us through growing up, what our environment, our peers send, then the state system as a message to us, individuals to take responsibility and the world, yes, we are part of the planet earth, what does the planet earth send us as a message to us, as human beings. And we understand all that and clean our backyards, we can understand what our responsibility is and what we are going to give in return to others. Until we don`t do that, we usually say “state didn`t provide a job a for me¬. Or, “my parents haven’t helped me, enough”. Or, this friend of mine is less smart, but he managed better then me. Maybe we didn’t see that they have better social skills than we have. Maybe we are genius and average grade of 10, but we don`t know how to stand for ourselves, we are shy at job interview, we think that saying our virtues and qualities is narcissistic. There are people that go to job interviews and they won`t tell what they are good at as they think that’s not okay. And they need social skills. In that sense, cleaning your backyard means that you see what is something that you can change with yourselves. Of course you see where others deliberately sabotage you and you have to move from them, maybe you can change the environment, maybe leave some people for good. But in a way, you are aware why are you doing so. Until we clean our back yard, we often project our problems onto other people, shift the responsibility we need to take or get stuck, live in the mud and just whine. And Serbia is also known for its collaborative rumination, and that is the moment when you go for coffee and we all collectively blame someone, and then we drown nicely in it and then we are like “um, so it couldn’t have been better”. In that context, REBT takes us back to personal responsibility, or teaches us where others were responsible for something. When you learn where your responsibility is then you can realise where the responsibility of others is, and you can draw a line.

Sanja Milosavljevic: This is interesting to me with REBT. I read something about it, thought about it, in the end, prepared myself for this conversation – does REBT free us from that well known excuse – it’s our parents fault? That is my parents responsibility. We have that early development period, that is most important for us to grow up and become adult persons. And whenever something is bad, or we are having hard time, we fail – than we can blame our parents. It is the easiest excuse – they haven’t taught me, they didn’t give me, they didn’t understand me and so on. Do REBT teach us that is not just that, something is up to us.


Bojana Obradović: I think it makes some sort of cooperation between these two. Yes, our parents are responsible for not giving us some knowledge, skills or love, some parents don’t give love. REBT says yes, they didn’t give us that. And since the past is something you don’t have influence in any case, you can’t change it, you can change how you feel about that past, and you can change how you’re going to affect to the fact that the past doesn’t determine the present or the future. . We are not going to say that it is not important, that they haven’t given us something. Yes, it is important, it affected our development. But, what are you going to do now? Are you going to stay in one place and to self pity yourself for the next 30 years or for the rest of your life, devalue yourself, blame them, or you’ll say they weren’t okay about it, but I now want to become a good enough parent to myself. I want to be there for myself and to make a better future, and at the end give my kids what I haven’t got from my parents. So, it a type of “and”. It is not rejecting, but sort of – they are responsible, it is very important, we should not deny that something bad has happened. It is always there as part of our history. But we need to go further because it is simply very important to be able to integrate that experience, to internalize it, to say what happened, to share what belongs to whom and to go further. And that is a good thing about REBT and schema therapy and the third wave, in every type of therapy. I am not familiar with every single one, I didn’t go through education for each, but I think that each type of therapy moves us to that. But REBT is very appealing to people because it explains how therapy works and people understand how a therapeutic change has occurred. And I think that is the magic of this type of therapy. People, with the help of homework and when they change their irrational beliefs into rational ones, also change how they feel, and then they have an experiential change, that is, they have to behave differently. They have this ABC model which is especially fantastic for some categories of people, to do these kinds of homework and then they feel capable of being their own therapists tomorrow and that’s a good part of the whole third wave of CBT. Our clients finally understand when therapeutic change happened, in what way and how to help themselves tomorrow. Some other types of therapeutic schools, that also work, have little mystery around them – it is not clear to people how they are feeling better. And they don’t feel okay, something is happening but they don’t know what is happening or how it is happening. And for people that love explanations, REBT therapy is excellent as they can understand what and how something happened. And that’s why I like it a lot. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, that is rational. It is one of the keywords for REBT. What sorts of problems can REBT help us solve? I don`t know, you are an expert, but can REBT resolve clinical depression, or serious personality disorders or is it just for resolving some wrong beliefs? Where is it most effective, where does it give the best results?

Bojana Obradović: Well, there is-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Or, am I wrong? It is…

Bojana Obradović:  No, it is okay, you can ask any question. It is okay, that would be my question, if I was ignorant in some field of expertise, I would ask the same question, so it is fine. Research shows that REBT is perfect for depression, anxiety, panic attacks, fobias. There are protocols how many sessions should be done, what is the procedure for sexual issues, erectile dysfunction. However, REBT and the whole third wave CBT is good for personality disorders. And we are now seriously thinking – I hope that it will be introduced in Serbia as well – not to call it personality disorders, I do not like that term, but to talk about a prolonged reaction – a prolonged PTSD, where people have experienced certain types of traumatic experiences, or a large number of developmental traumas and then something happened in the personality structure. So those who have the problem are not defective, so something happened to them and when we approach to it like that, the recovery rate is much higher, things improve, the persons views themselves differently. And I can say that at the moment, REBT is introducing that part as well, and part dedicated to trauma, so the researches are done. And it is introduced in education. When I was a student and went to education, we didn’t talk about trauma and working with trauma. We were more focused on personality disorders, anxiety, depression and in time, you see how every modality is developing. So, it is not done, every school is still developing, like psychoanalysis, that becomes relational. After all, REBT had to introduce a story of childhood, although it was effective, at some point they realized that clients were coming back. It was interesting to me with REBT. You get pretty good- the client is well, however he comes back to you. Why is he coming back, because of the therapeutic relationship, because it is one of the most important parts of therapy and the most changeable. And then you realize that there is still some untold part of the story, that they are very functional here and there, that for example they have made a successful partnership and got a job and then, there is mobbing at work, and they come with serious symptoms. What has happened? In fact, it triggered some traumatic childhood experiences. Or they have a healthy relationship, but they notice that they treat their partner – boyfriend, girlfriend – in a way that is not okay and when we go deeper into that story we actually realize that there are some childhood stories that have never been told, which is important now we tell, to give them some context, to change behavior, to notice what triggers are. So in my opinion REBT is a good therapy of choice, especially if we want a quick therapeutic change, if we have strong symptoms, if we want to stabilize ourselves in some way to help ourselves get out of depression. What’s more, in a number of cases in my experience – I can’t talk about colleagues – it happened that people didn’t take medication. That we had agreements with them to do their homework and to activate themselves and people managed to push through change. It often happens that people come to you at that moment when we still have to talk about that childhood. Of course we will put it in the context of both REBT and other therapies, but that story in a way, always comes back and after so many years of experience I think that quality therapy cannot be performed without finding out about the client and that may be a complaint which I hope will improve now – it is not mine to improve it for sure – but to the educators and creators of the therapy themselves, that some stories cannot be told. Yes, after all, it is very important that we hear about the family system and about transgenerational traumas and about their parents. This is the story with “and” that I told you, but it often happens in REBT that you have, for example, some kind of problem that is successfully resolved but not told and you do not know that part about the client. That happens, for example, and people will tell you that they left therapy, got what they needed, and that’s totally okay. Well, maybe that’s the part that you mentioned were some people with situational problems. And indeed, for example, they had a good childhood, good parents, everything is okay, there was no peer violence, there were no major developmental traumas, but they are now experiencing a situation that has derailed them. We go to work, capitalism, we experience mobbing. We, especially if we have never had experience in our life with bad behavior – that someone labels us, that someone abuses us, that someone raises their voice on us, we can experience an acute stress reaction, we can feel great anxiety or for example if we lose someone the first in life – that is an existential crisis, a question about the meaning of life appears- and then go to therapy. We are basically functional people, we have good values, good rational beliefs, we are stable, but something came to us for the first time, that is unknown and we want to understand ourselves well. And here, for example, it is great because it gives us a kind of focus, breadth, how your thoughts shape you, how to experience your emotions and change your behavior. So we can do without it, but it is not that frequent 

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, that’s why – you mentioned drugs. I’m not against it – I can’t say I support it, but I’m not against drugs either. Until the balance of hormones is achieved, why not, it should be introduced because it seems to me that then the path to healing and solving the problem is better. Not faster, but simply better and of better quality. But is it easy – in our culture it is known, everyone uses something – some pills, Bensedines, this and that. I read some research somewhere, but I can’t say which one, because I forgot. We take a little too much Bensedine in the past year, for example, or in the past five years. Why is it easy for us to take medicine, but difficult for us to talk about problems?

Bojana Obradović: Well again, I would say it is culturally and transgenerationally, it’s that moment in the old days like coffee and brandy in the morning. When you come from the field, it is normal to drink half a kilo of brandy, so unfortunately a large number of people calmed their anxieties with it. I think that it was not culturally recognized that people have problems with stress and fears, but it was in a way anesthetized, such as in America there is marijuana abuse where that feeling of inner incontinence, restlessness, anxiety is also anesthetized and in a way we suppress deeper emotions. In Serbia, Bromazepam and Bensedine are number one. As America is a Prosak nation. And in that way, we will either light a cigarette, drink alcohol or take medicine because, after all, our parents – grandparents – are the ones who took the medicine. It has been normalized and it is in a way-

Sanja Milosavljević: It is a model, well accepted. We internalized it.

Bojana Obradović: You hear from the client “My mother gave me Bromazepam”, you will hear in the pharmacy that you can easily buy medicines for which a prescription is necessary. So it is a systemic abuse of drugs that is certainly known at the state level and is not reacted to. At psychotherapy, we psychologists do not prescribe drugs, psychiatrists do that. And you will always get it from your psychotherapist, hey, but it is important that you talk to a psychiatrist. We will consult, we will see if medication is necessary. They will be taken for three months, six months to a year – it is known why the drugs are taken, which drugs are taken, how the dose is reduced, increased, stopped and what are the side effects. And it is a serious process that neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist will enter into just like that. We really will do that when it is necessary. And then a client will come to you for therapy who is seriously abusing Bensedines and you have a problem explaining to him that it is not ok. It’s just a part of culture where something has been normalized, which in my opinion is not ok, it’s not normal. And we have to talk about it systematically. First of all, the state should take over the role of protection to introduce penalties in pharmacies, and that they must not do that. And then people who really need it, can take medication. Because in that way, I will express myself in a little bit informal way – you dull your emotions and the neurological system, and you don’t even know how you feel. So there may be situations that you can handle, but since you are used to taking Bromazepam, you will take it in situations where you can endure without it. You will be slightly anxious, the day will be fine, but you are used to saying to yourself aha, say I am going to work, today I have a presentation, it will be difficult – I will take one pill. In a way-

Sanja Milosavljević: Or drink a glass of alcohol or something like that. I mean, I’m not against drugs or alcohol, but not to be abused, but to be used, to have a purpose. Although the thing about our culture is what you said – we can’t imagine celebrating anything without alcohol. We had that case about 15 years ago, our friend celebrated the birth of a child and he was not serving alcohol – and only the birth of a child is that special occasion. And no alcohol was served. How angry everyone was. How angry everyone was at him. Like, how is it possible, so how does he think we celebrate the birth? So I said, be happy, a child has been born. Play music, tear a man’s t-shirt apart, but you don’t need alcohol to celebrate. So- I’m not against either of it, just to know the measure. And can you explain something – what is trauma? And if you can explain to us what is the difference between a traumatic experience and the trauma itself?

Bojana Obradović: Okay, so trauma is an event that happens to us too suddenly and that is overwhelming for us so that our body can’t actually react at that moment. And then there are processes that can occur – fighting, freezing or running away. And our body simply remembers the trauma through our nervous system, through various types of memories, through various types of sensations, beliefs that we acquire about ourselves and others at that moment, and emotions. We can very often dissociate, not be present at that moment and feel overwhelmed. Trauma can be something that happens at one point situationally, like we had floods so we all experienced it – accidents, refugees, war – but they can also be developmental, where they happen continuously for a long period of time. For example, parents are constantly arguing, we do not know whether we will be beaten or not when Dad enters the room, one of the parents is an alcoholic and then we continuously experience that our environment is unsafe. So these are developmental traumas that happen, happen continuously and leave consequences, and a traumatic experience is something that happened to us but we can now integrate it or we can’t, depending on how we handled it, and it now destabilizes us or internalizes it so we can go forward and talk about it. I think culturally we all have one type or another type of trauma. Maybe we never called them trauma, even we in college, who learned so much about it. Here I remember when I went to my therapy, so my therapist called my experience trauma, I stopped for a moment and said “and that’s trauma?”. Why does this happen? Because, unfortunately, it is normal in Serbia for bad things to happen to you. When you go to high school and read Dostoevsky, different types of stories “Prvi put s ocem na jutrenje”, you learn that bad things happen, that all families are unhappy in their own way and that everyone has that sad story. And we, in a way, normalize abnormality. So, for generations, we have been normalizing bad things – our history in the Middle Ages with the Turks, wars, losses, crossing through Albania, we are used to something bad happening to us. And when someone calls our experience a trauma, we are shocked because it is normal to us and when people come to therapy and when we tell them that what happened was actually overwhelming for their body, they only then begin to understand what is happening to them. Only then do they understand why they often project things on other people, why they are often full of anger, why they behave badly towards others, what is happening in their body, why they freeze. For example, they go to a job interview, someone raises their voice on them and they freeze. Not knowing that it was strongly connected, for example, with the beatings they received as a child. Or, for example, Dad before he beat you for what he did, he raised an eyebrow and your boss raises an eyebrow when he wants to send constructive criticism, and then the client comes overwhelmed and says that he has stomach problems, fever, he is not going to work, and freezes. What do we understand from that? What your boss is doing, he raises an eyebrow. It is a harmless situation, but people come with serious symptoms and only later do we realize that it is actually related to their traumatic experience where they were abused, received serious threats to their being and then you realize aha, so this is why I freeze at present moment and here. And that story about traumas is very important in Serbia because we imply too many things and because we all experienced them, we say somebody’s story is no longer important. Come on, let it go, I was also beaten. It is nothing, the beating stick came out of heaven. We have all experienced it somehow, it is now a collective mindset that these are completely normal things and it is unclear to us why then people protest, why they react, why they call everything trauma. I think that the time has come for our society to actually accept that we are a highly traumatized nation, transgenerationally, that it starts from the origin of the Serbs themselves and that until we process it, integrate it, we cannot have very healthy descendants. Because when you resolve the trauma, changes occur, epigenesis also happens, and in a way everything changes and you actually create healthier offspring. And it’s no wonder. In fact, few people know this, but in college, we learned that the first generation of children from Jews who were in the Holocaust was changed, that their genes were different and that they were called living candles. That they were prone to anxiety, that they had bigger problems with alcohol, that they felt more insecure, less self-confident compared to their peers. There was nothing that set them apart from others except that their parents had such a traumatic experience. So traumas change our being, leave changes within us and it is very important to talk about it because it can happen that what you experience may have nothing to do with you but may have something to do with your ancestors and you are not aware of it at all. So it is a very serious and broad story that is currently happening in Serbia. There is one wonderful project called “Trauma, our story”. Tijana Mirović and Marko Tomašević are doing a great job on this topic and they have opened us up to that. Now they are recording a podcast where they talk about such experiences and we are more and more ready to admit to ourselves that something bad has happened to us. And it wasn’t as normal as we liked to normalize it. I think our ancestors had to normalize it to survive – that’s okay. They lived in different times, maybe it had to be that way for them. For us, at the present moment and here when life expectancy is extended, when we face new challenges, we have to change something because of our children.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, you said that nicely. We have to change because of our children. Can you tell us something about schema therapy?

Bojana Obradović: Schema therapy is-

Sanja Milosavljević: And thank you very much for this story about trauma – we could talk for hours and hours about trauma. Thank you for being able to … sum it up in a few sentences. And what is a scheme?

Bojana Obradović: Yes, the scheme belongs to the third wave of CBT and Jeffrey Young, the creator of the scheme therapy, who is a very similar character to me, I have to say that. He did both psychoanalysis and CBT, however he realized that it didn’t really work best for his clients and at one point he started doing serious research to see why it wasn’t effective enough, especially with personality disorder and actually came up with a serious story about trauma and to a serious childhood story and that, until we resolve it with our clients, it may not be good enough for them. They will return to therapy or have problems with depression, internal emptiness and will not understand themselves. So the scheme is therapy, a therapy that, in my opinion, is a great upgrade to REBT as if they were created for each other. I mean, it’s kind of an upgrade that helps us REBT therapists, CBT, and the like to actually get into a childhood story with clients, to understand their traumatic experience, and with the help of techniques to change that traumatic experience. What’s really going on? That’s what I say, a kind of magic, but it’s not magic, it’s very scientifically based, where you work with a client on traumatic experiences and with the help of techniques change the neurological response to it. So a client who once froze will now take action. A client who has been constantly struggling will now learn not to fight. Because you have people who are traumatized – for example, that was my favorite answer, I constantly fought as a child. And then I got used to fighting even when I shouldn’t. And then it becomes problematic in adulthood because you are also against people with whom you should not fight, in relationships in which you should indulge and be okay, you are constantly in some tension and want to stand up for yourself and have no opponents and in a way you are constantly expecting some kind of danger. This scheme therapy actually helps you understand what belongs to the past and what belongs to present moment and here and how to create a better future and it is a type of therapy where there is a lot of work on the therapeutic relationship where the therapist confronts the client, which is not typical for other therapies where you lead the client, you explain some things to them quite directly, but you also make a boundary and you are, in a way, an instrument of change. If the client is too passive, you push them – you have the right to push them. If the client is too dominant or violates boundaries, you set boundaries for them. You are actually kind of parentified – they are parentified children, so you are their parents, it is called imitated parenting. You are now playing that role that they missed in life and teaching them how to position themselves and giving them that role that they did not get. And that’s great for them. Ironically, clients do what they do, they do it with their partners. They expect their partners to be their best friends, to be the ones to save them. And then the partner has to do everything or the partner has to be a parent. If the partner is a parent, very often there is a loss of sexual desire because no one wants to sleep with their parents and then people come with relationship problems. And we understand that they play children’s games, aged 5-6, 10 years old children in a partnership, that they are stuck in that period and through the scheme therapy you make a bridge based on those experiences, change them and give them a completely new framework. So it’s nice for me and different for us therapists because we usually have little – I mean, REBT is otherwise active therapy, but it’s also more active here and you have a kind of empathic confrontation that I think is very important for us therapists as we usually, in a way, we have no right to any directness, we never say anything. But you are allowed in this type of therapy, when you estimate, to tell the client that they can no longer drink alcohol. So you simply have – it’s a serious kind of addiction, we can’t keep working you have to take that responsibility. And that is a moment, for example, you realize that that client has no one around him who will tell him that – there are no parents who will tell him that, there is no partner who will tell him that because he has chosen a partner who will not set that boundary for him. You are that person and then you educate the client why you set that boundary. What happened, what happens is so great and I like it because it develops us therapists in a new sense and it is very important that you have a lot of supervision to follow yourself. How do you behave as a therapist, do you cross a line, take some freedom, give advice that you should not give. This is now, for example, challenging for me personally, because we have never learned in therapy that advice is never given directly. And this is a therapy that still includes a different type of giving advice that is, guiding and directing that they did not have through growing up, so it is important for us to change as well. So I see it as a kind of personal development.

Sanja Milosavljević: And what does that story about personal development look like to you in general? It’s taken quite superficially now and everyone does something like that – which is great, I really don’t mind it, anyway – physically, mentally, every little thing is important. We can’t dismiss it. But it seems easy to speak, now everyone is doing something on a personal development plan. And what do you think about that, and what do you think about that – it bothers me a little now, I don’t know if it’s up to me – there is that “be the best version of yourself”. Constantly someone sends us a message to be the best version of yourself, where I wondered what I would simply not accept myself, change what is wrong, improve what can be improved and just to assemble, not to be version 2.0. To constantly fall apart and then be put together – it’s better to do it once and be me, not be a version of myself. That is, versions of yourself. So what do you think about that?

Bojana Obradović: Yes, I think I know why you like REBT. The REBT itself introduced the concept of unconditional acceptance, that you can love yourself even while working on yourself. It means that you just love yourself, respect yourself, have a certain kind of common sense and somehow you are okay with being imperfect. You can say to yourself that you are 10 kg overweight and you don’t like that very much, but you will work on it, you will go to training and you will eat healthier, but at the same time you love yourself. You got up in the morning and you can love yourself today the way you are. You even have one exercise – to look at yourself naked in the mirror and to accept your imperfect body, even though in common sense you have that tendency to have better health, be fit, with more muscles. Well, that means even in this psychological construct that whatever version of ourselves we are, we can love ourselves and be okay with it. And to strive for a better version if we understand why we need that better version. That’s totally okay with me. I want to be more spiritual, for example, and I am working on that development – someone is going through Buddhism, someone is going through religion, someone is going through some other types of directions, school, someone wants to be more educated and finish college. And respect that, love that part yourself and move on – I’ll be a better version of myself. But it’s kind of – being the best version of yourself, that narcissism that constantly asks us to be perfect is imposed a bit. To be ideal in order to be worth anything at the moment, I must mention that American studies show that there is an increase in narcissism in new generations. If that is yet to come, we will see how it will be in Serbia. Where some messages come from that social, as I would say, come as a trend. So a social trend where many generations on the internet are constantly wearing make-up, always dressing well, they are always ideal and then with them comes that message about yourself. As, for example, for the generations behind us when Tito was the main one, that was the moment of the collective mindset. All for one and one for all. And somehow every generation has a story about themselves. Now this story is the bad side of the internet that we all have to be great to succeed at all. Which is not quite true. We can be okay and still succeed and we can love each other, but these are some messages that need to be seen and removed. Like, how to turn off a notification. For me- this doesn’t really work for me. For whom it works, great, but it’s not okay for me.

Sanja Milosavljević: Okay. Well thank you. I would like to ask you now, not just to tell us the history of the REBT and the scheme therapy – how are you? How did you spend last year, what has changed? In what way did it happen? I told you before the conversation, I had really serious problems at the end of last year – I couldn’t stand the coronavirus anymore. I wasn’t anymore – it was so hard for me that I reacted inadequately to some nonsense, to some little things that I wouldn’t pay attention to at all, but I was probably constantly tense, anxious and all that. And how was it with you? Now I know that all people think that therapists and psychotherapists are always Zen. I know some of your colleagues who are not, because they are human. How was it with you?

Bojana Obradović: Yes. And we are like others. We have good days, bad days, terrible days. And very irrational behaviors. I thought about it a bit before I came here because you told me you were going to ask me that. I think it was a serious and emotional and practical rollercoaster. The coronavirus happened for me just at the moment when I was supposed to open my counseling center with a friend, and somehow all our plans fell into the water overnight. The space we rented and paid for a while, we didn’t even enter it in the end. We never knew when we would start working live again. In the meantime, that state of emergency happened and we were all locked in houses and I have to admit I had a shopping mania. Somehow at some point I was healing my emotions by buying things I think I absolutely didn’t need. But luckily it only lasted a month and somehow I think we all suffered regarding that. And then in a way, as 2-3 months passed, it returned to normal. For me, I think it was somehow the most shocking in those first month and a half. We are suddenly closed, and everything is changing, we are moving to work from home. I don’t like it – I wasn’t prepared to work from home. I don’t even have a desk. So somehow it took me a while to come to terms with the fact that I would have to buy a desk, that I would buy an armchair, that it would be my life for the next year, two, three. I was not unfamiliar with online work, I have been working with clients for years like that, but I did not expect to work nonstop in that manner. That found me quite unprepared and I think that for a while it introduced me to a kind of numbness. Sitting in front of a screen all day, everything is the same and you don’t know where you are. So as far as business was concerned, I needed to get used to it, I wasn’t ready for it at first. And neither did the clients, it took time to adjust to working online. Those who have never worked online. Those with whom I was working online, everything was the same. But on the other hand I was just thinking it’s my little confession, I’m sorry friends and family, but I love that year so much because I was finally in touch with my- everyone sees me as an extrovert but I seem to be an introvert – I never had nicer time in my life. So I have to admit, staying at home that I don’t have to see people that I don’t have to go for Christmas and Easter – I apologize to mom and dad. But I liked it so much and everyone was shocked because I was like “my books, my walk”, I don’t have to see anyone, I don’t have to agree on anything, because somehow my life is socially quite active and it was always – After work we go to see each other. Weekends. I didn’t even realize how tired I was. I didn’t even realize how constantly I was with people and I wasn’t alone, so this was such a battery charge for me. I am now full of desire to see people, but it is as if my body also needed to slow down. And the fact that I’m not with people has somehow helped me understand how much of that time I want to spend with people. We who work with people in a way forget that it is exhausting because we are used to it – it is normal for us therapists. Yes, we are constantly in those processes.

Sanja Milosavljević: You are in a kind of a drill.

Bojana Obradović: That’s exactly it. And then, in a way this – the inability to see my people helped me understand how to be with them better and differently. But also to accept that side that I don’t need that much contact. I didn’t know that about myself before. Or I have changed, I will understand what exactly happened. I like that quite a bit too. I don’t know how it is for others, I think that some have experienced serious periods of loneliness and crisis. Anxiety attacks and how to be alone, and I like it very much now and in a way, I quite enjoy that reduced intensity of social contacts. 

Sanja Milosavljević:  And is it important to be alone? For example, I am that introvert and I have known that for a long time. And I don’t have a problem with that at all and it suits me that I’m alone. And I regenerate and recover best just when I’m completely alone. I have friends, family, husband, I don’t know what, but to be alone, regenerate and then I can be the same old me. And are we afraid to be alone, are we a little upset? To put it this way.

Bojana Obradović: Well some people are. Especially if we lived in families where there is a symbiosis, so there are no boundaries, so we do everything together, we are together non-stop. Being alone can often be an overwhelming experience. For example, there are parents who do not develop our social skills, we do not know how to turn on the washing machine, pay the bill or sleep in the dark. There are families that are so connected and there are no boundaries that when they are left alone they are simply terrified. But then, there is also that period of development where we are afraid of loneliness because loneliness brings the question of who I am. What is my purpose, what is the meaning of my life, and in a way, it leads to problems, we get an anxiety attack or we get some kind of emotional emptiness, it is not okay for us to stay with ourselves. While we are running away from these issues with others, then when there are finally no others, which unfortunately the pandemic for some people led to, they began to communicate loneliness, depression and serious panic attacks because that was the first time they came in contact with themselves. So there were no distractors, there was nothing to save them, they were left alone with themselves and only then did they see how much they did not know how to be alone with themselves. And that it is a place to be learned. And some people while they’re alone are pretty lonely and then we realize that often those social relationships are kind of like I would say – well the network we’re clinging to. In which we maintain ourselves to function and somehow the pandemic has led us to realize how deep relationships we have or don’t have, which has been sobering for some people. Like yeah, I think for some people we have in our lives, but actually we’re good to go for cafes, for some vacations and now that we’re supposed to be there for each other emotionally, to see how we are, to support each other, those relationships are actually very empty. And that actually put some people in a pretty serious sense of loneliness. To understand that the relations they have are relations that are superficial and that do not form the essence, and then they had to make some kind of change, and that is a serious change, and a pandemic is happening on a global level. And then the divorce rate increased, a lot of people changed jobs, a lot of people stopped hanging out with some people and this is … so this pretty often led to a lot of “yeah this is actually happening in my life” and that it is painful but ultimately better for us.

Sanja Milosavljević:  Well, yes, I also see a pandemic as a chance, but not a chance in a business sense and we can use it, everything is an opportunity, nothing – a pandemic is a chance for me to face myself. Suddenly you were forced to be alone, you couldn’t escape to work, shopping or socializing, you had nowhere to escape because you were locked in your four walls. And what will happen to us – I mean now, it doesn’t matter, I can’t ask you to be a prophet and predict what our future will be like, but how will the pandemic affect us? I am, in several of these conversations, especially with people who are from this region – Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia – we have that experience. You alone mentioned – refugees. You mentioned it yourself. How will this affect us? I think that we are already damaged a little, in general, collectively, and how will this affect us?

Bojana Obradović: Well, I think we are already seeing some consequences – you noticed that nicely, the increased drug abuse that is happening. Then there is a lot more anger on the streets. That is what is noticed, that is in the air. Yes, people – because they cannot express that dissatisfaction – there are changes at work, there are dismissals, family systems suffer a lot of disagreements. The crisis is bigger, we can’t gather for family gatherings, we can’t have those comforting moments. There is no joy, no baptism, no weddings, no- our people are joyful. No matter how much sadness we carry within us, we somehow know how to have a good time and it is a kind of recovery and regeneration for us and there is no such thing now. What happens then? We see a kind of collective rage, collective apathy, and this, when it is over, only then will the traumas emerge. Because it is all connected with our past and our future, but there will also be some kind of painful realization that what we have already said has happened to some people, only then will it happen aha, who really wasn’t there for us. How much our employers hurt us, how much they betrayed our expectations. For example, whether they gave us that help from the state or not. There are stories that can already be seen underneath. How many women lost their jobs because they became pregnant, what happened to the dismissals, how many people lost – for example, drastic salary cuts. Loans from the banks. And those are some things that will start to happen on a collective level. Not to mention one thing, I have to mention it again, but it is important – the loss of trust in the system. So, a research was done at the Faculty of Philosophy, where it is shown that our citizens have seriously lost trust in the profession of doctors and in the profession of epidemiologists and in our government. Now, even if you do not trust some systems that are crucial for maintenance for a whole year, then the question is what will happen in the future with our health system? What will happen tomorrow when science comes, and people no longer believe in science? Not to mention conspiracy theory, we Serbs have always been prone to conspiracy theories. Now we have gone to the extreme. And I’m pretty worried about that. This morning I listened to the radio – a rarity. But thanks to that – since I don’t have a TV, thanks to that radio, I realized that our government offers the help of 3,000 RSD for people who will get vaccinated.

Sanja Milosavljević:  I haven’t heard of that. I hear that from you. That is a disaster.

Bojana Obradović: Yes, yes, the citizens who will be vaccinated for the first dose of vaccine will get 3000 RSD. And that is something that speaks about our mentality. I am now thinking that some people who may have had some certain views will go for the money. It tells you about what happens when one can change their attitude for 3000 dinars. Your attitude about medicine, your attitude about something you thought you had in your life. And that shakes generations and generations to come because we realize that then- what do we believe in, for example? So before, our people believed in religion, then at one point they started to believe in science. After the pandemic, I think that some serious research should be done, it is a question of whether we will have anything at all – apart from a small number of people – we can have confidence and why we should have confidence. And that is something that will shake our foundations, and then the question is what will happen. How many people will leave the country or not. If people leave, it affects those who stay again, so I think this will affect us all quite emotionally and most of the challenge will be who to trust now, how to trust yourself after all this? First of all, we don’t trust the system, we don’t trust nature either – we don’t know how much it can surprise us and take us away so easily, and somehow it has its own natural flow, we forgot that. It’s always been that way, but we kind of forgot a little bit and now it’s back, but when we realize that we’ve lost some friends or experienced some crises, then that experience comes up – can I trust myself to be stable when something bad happens again? Of course, this should be integrated so that we all experience a kind of challenge, to internalize some things, to understand that we still managed. But I think for some people who don’t work on themselves, who don’t talk, this will remain as a bad experience that will actually be a trigger in the future that when something like this happens, they destabilize. And if we actually talk, like in this podcast that you host and that’s great and that I hope a lot of people will hear, it will help people actually embrace their experience, validate it, integrate it, and maybe learn a lesson from it.

Sanja Milosavljević: You said that better than I could have imagined. Now, since we’re close to the end, I want you to tell me something about “Let’s talk about it” I like the name of that project so much because it is- I really think there is salvation in the story. Not in telling stories, but for me to hear your story, for you to hear my – authentic story. And so, of course, we will do it with the help of therapy, with the help of drugs, but that is the first step for me, to start talking. It means that you have at least become aware of something and that is one step closer to healing. What is that? What is “Let’s talk about it”?

Bojana Obradović: Well, thank you for asking. “Let’s talk about it” is my project, of course, with colleagues, which was created in 2013. and we help students. The reason I chose the students is because the future me – this is the one here now – went to save me then and somehow to be there for myself. And the project deals with students. The reason I chose the students is that they are the population that is one step away from adulthood. These are future employees, parents, young spouses and it seemed to me like a great developmental period that people who have mental health problems want to work on themselves. To go to a psychologist, ie a therapist, to get free support and help. Because somehow taught by my own financial situation and my environment, I realized that there are people who want to work on themselves but will not be able to afford the minimum price of therapy and as they are interested in it, they will be able to get the support of psychotherapists to get to know themselves better, and somehow resolve problems. And my experience is, I have to say it is beautiful on both sides. First of all, from someone who leads the project with my colleague who has been constantly participating for eight years now, we always have new volunteers, the project works thanks to them. I mean, I still have students I work with for free, but I certainly couldn’t do anything to make it sustainable. So the project is, I think, of special importance for our psychological community in Serbia because it is a story about people who work as volunteers. So they come here to actually help clients for free. And some of them do that for years, some for a certain period of time. And students show up, work on themselves, and we slowly break those prejudices. The first name was “Talk about it”, for that very reason, let’s talk about the problems and our first campaign was “How are you”, just to talk about it. And “It’s okay that you’re not okay”, these are some of the first things we started with, and I think it started a kind of change at the social level where we started talking openly about those things and resolving them in some way. And later, it got a kind of other notion, because when you solve things, because, Brene Brown appeared later in my life – 2016, 17, 18, and she speaks about authenticity. Her research is phenomenal and she talks about telling the story again. That’s when we actually embrace our experience and now recount what you said, traumatic experience in a new way. So, in fact, “Let’s talk about it” is constantly evolving so that it has a nice and positive connotation, and what we do is make lectures and workshops. The lectures are also open to the public, they are not just for students and I am thrilled – there are people of all ages. And they come, ask questions, tell personal stories, there is so much humor in those lectures. It is a completely new experience of psychotherapy for me and for me, for example, the most beautiful lecture was 2018 – that’s exactly what I feel the need to share. Where five of my clients came and shared their experience with therapy, and people – first of all, I was thrilled because I never believed that clients would want to show, to be seen, to talk. Usually people want to write and share stories anonymously – they are okay with those experiences, but they decided that they still want to tell and that is something that was so healing. So seeing someone telling their story, who carries it, who stands there in front of people, maybe some 40-50 people and that was for me as a therapist – I have to admit, I’m young, but that was the peak of my career. Okay, maybe something happens but as a therapist you sit with your clients and talk about what happened. There are some other people who realize that this is actually one of the most normal things in the world – going to therapy. So, there you go. So “Let’s talk about it” is a project that exists and will exist, I hope. I plan to take it over to the new generation every 5 years. These people are a future development step, but I would like my colleagues to design similar projects for other groups because everyone deserves help, and we realized that we can’t really help everyone and that for some group of population, it wouldn’t be okay to work with young volunteers. Our volunteers were students until recently, so now they are in education, they are similar in years, so it’s a great part with therapists and students who click quickly and somehow we match. So I hope there will be projects for high school students, adults and seniors alike – that would be so great.

Sanja Milosavljević: Oh great, it’s great from my perspective. Especially since we need to go back – from the earliest time when kids can be self-aware and recognize, I think it’s time to start. So, high school, for example, is ideal for me, especially since high school is a teenage phase, so it’s a bit of hormones, so it’s a bit of rebellion. Everything happens – in those teenage years, everything happens to us. I really like that “Let’s talk about it”. When I first saw Brene Brown I think I was enchanted watching her for hours and hours, until eventually I got tired and said I can’t take it anymore. My next was Gabor Mate, for example, I was also listening to him for hours and hours and I couldn’t stop. Wherever I was – in the bathroom, in the car, I listened to them non-stop. I was just enchanted with the two of them. Would you please send us a message? I usually ask – I ask people to – it doesn’t have to be a message now in the sense of a saying, it can be a recommendation to read a good book, watch a good movie – it doesn’t have to be – anything you think is important to share with other people.

Bojana Obradović: Yes. So, since you in a way said that a podcast is a story about our understanding of the experience during a pandemic, even though we talked more about some other things, let my message be that a pandemic was actually an abnormal condition and if we did experience any abnormal reactions, they are normal, in abnormal situations. So if you’ve been a little weird to yourself for the past year and if you’re a little weird for some time more, you realize it’s part of some normal thing because something’s happening to us that we weren’t prepared for, for which there were no instructions, manuals, we all somehow managed in something completely new. So if that’s what happened to you, it’s important to accept yourself and allow yourself to be whatever version you are. And it will pass and you will somehow allow yourself to look back later and see okay what am I going to do with this now, what strengths should I strengthen? Maybe somewhere I’m not okay, what would I like to improve, have any of the things that happened to me during the pandemic awakened the spirits of the past? Trigger? Maybe I can go to a therapist to talk a little about understanding myself better. So I think this was – and still is – a story about all of us to understand where we are, where the planet earth is, where we are with each other, how to understand each other and in some way get to know each other better and accept more ourselves and if this is not a reason for you to start therapy, maybe the idea that life is one – I would like to say that. And whoever goes to therapy will definitely get to know themselves far better. And then somehow when the end of our lives comes, when we look back we will be able to wink so sweetly at ourselves and say that we have done a good job. And somehow I think that part of therapy is fantastic where no matter how painful it is, no matter how much you realize some of your flaws, you see how unique you are, learn how to be authentic through life, really realize some of your values and skills and even potentials for which you had no idea you actually owned. And in a way, you self-actualize, you reach your full potential and then whatever happens to you, that’s not a problem. So it doesn’t matter if life is short or long, you are somehow with yourself, you love and understand yourself a lot, you accept all those life experiences that are both good and bad as they come and you somehow live it to the fullest. And that’s why I say therapy helps you make life living and not pass it by. So I would always go to therapy to live.

Sanja Milosavljević: To live, yes. Well thank you – I could go on with you for hours. Like what you’re doing next week. Since you said really nicely, we didn’t even scratch the topic of the pandemic, but I wanted to ask you this, to ask you that, and in the end … we devoted very little time to pandemic. Good people, you listened to and watched the Mondopreneur podcast. Be good, be in good health and see you in a week.

Sanja Milosavljević: Dobro veče, dobri ljudi, moje ime je Sanja Milosavljević i ja ću biti vaša voditeljka danas. Vi pratite, odnosno gledate i slušate Mondopreneur podcast. Podcast posvećen deljenju priča ljudi iz čitavog sveta i našeg okruženja, a koje se uglavnom vrte oko pandemije pošto nam se ona desila svima simultano u isto vreme i ne možemo da tražimo neke probleme koji su nam tekući u nekoj drugoj državi ili kod nekih drugih ljudi i zato delimo priče ljudi iz celog sveta da vidimo da se svi nalazimo manje više u istoj situaciji. Ceo ovaj projekat podržava američka ambasada u Beogradu u Srbiji i zahvaljujući njima mi i radimo ovo. Moja današnja gošća dolazi iz Beograda, bavi se terapijom i zove se Bojana. I da ja sad ne bih nabrajala šta sve Bojana radi, ja ću Bojani prepustiti da ona kaže nešto o sebi. Zdravo Bojana, kako si?

Bojana Obradović: Zdravo Sanja, dobro sam, hvala na pitanju. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E nema na čemu. To je- danas je to neko glavno pitanje. Ranije je kako si bilo nekako forme radi, a danas kad pitamo nekoga kako si, baš hoćemo da čujemo kako ova druga strana. Kaži mi- ja obično pitam goste i gošće da nam se predstave. Šta su po obrazovanju, i na koji način je njihovo formalno obrazovanje uticalo na ono čime se oni danas bave i da li imaju neki interesantan hobi. Zato što nije sve samo rad, rad, rad nego moramo da imamo negde gde se opuštamo ili ispoljavamo naše kreativne strane.

Bojana Obradović: Okej. Nisam očekivala – sviđa mi se pitanje. Ja sam psihološkinja po obrazovanju i bavim se psihoterapijom. Trenutno sam u više modaliteta jer mi to najviše odgovara. Radim neku vrstu integracije i bavim se projektom “Pričajmo o tome”, to je savetovalište koje pomaže studentima. Radimo razne radionice, psihoterapiju i predavanja što je za mene važno, da pomažemo za mentalno zdravlje. A hobi, pa sad sam razmišljala šta bih rekla ali mislim da sad trenutno biljke. Pošto sam potpuno zaljubljena u biljke i nekako ih je najviše trenutno u mom životu, a van toga volim fotografiju i volim da plešem. Ništa profesionalno, ali to me prilično ispunjava. Tako da hvala za to pitanje o hobiju. Obično to ljudi ne pitaju u današnje vreme.

Sanja Milosavljević: Ja volim to da pitam zato što hobi pokaže zapravo ono što ne želimo da pokažemo drugim ljudima nego hobi je najčešće ona naša mala oaza. I super mi je, volim da pitam, volim da čujem šta ljudi rade u svoje slobodno vreme. To što plešeš, to mi je fenomenalno. To stvarno ispunjava, nije samo fizička aktivnost nego ples je i lep sam po sebi. E sad, koliko nam je potrebna terapija? Gde smo mi, kad kažem mi, mislim na naše okruženje i region, je’l se mi plašimo da idemo na terapiju? Jel imamo tu stigmu da oni koji idu na terapiju i traži pomoć da nešto sa njima nije u redu, da je lud, imamo tu reč kao “lud je” ako uopšte ima neki bilo kakav problem. Da. Pa, gde smo mi tu?

Bojana Obradović: Na pola puta. Mislim da se pomeramo blago i da idemo na bolje i to si lepo primetila. Mi imamo transgeneracijske predrasude prema psihoterapiji. Obično se kaže jel ima u familiji neko ko ima slom živaca. Tako se obično priča. Jel imate vi u familiji nekog čudaka. Ranije pošto su brakovi bili ugovoreni u Srbiji uglavnom, nažalost, uvek se ispitivala genetika. Dal je bio neko ko je malo onako drugačiji, čudnovat. I nekako se izbegavalo da se ljudi spajaju sa porodicama koje imaju nekoga ko nije bio super. Ko nije savršen ili ne daj bože da je imao neki problem i to se tako istraživalo. I onda se govori o prabakama koje su imale slom živaca. Problem je u Srbiji što većina ljudi kad radimo porodično stablo ni ne zna koje probleme su imali njihovi preci. Ne mogu ni da saznaju da li su nasledili neki deo za anksioznost, da li imaju predispoziciju za depresiju pošto postoji biološki deo depresije, što bi njima puno pomoglo da se osećaju bolje u vezi sebe. I onda imamo i društvo gde- mi smo ipak zemlja malih sredina. Beograd jeste naš centar, ali većina gradova je mala i ljudi imaju mnogo veće predrasude u tim mestima jer se sve zna. I ljudi imaju mnogo veći strah da odlaze na terapiju jer će biti viđeni, a onda će dobiti tu etiketu da su nenormalni, a ako su nenormalni zapravo kreće stigma i na radnom mestu, kreće stigma i u partnerskim odnosima, a da ne pričamo i o strani šire familije koja će često stvarati pritisak da se napusti takav partner ili partnerka jer se ljudi boje genetskog nasleđivanja ne znajući istinu o mentalnom zdravlju i onda se stvaraju razni mitovi. Međutim ono što ja primećujem što se tiče moje struke – internetu hvala puno – neki ljudi ga ne vole, ja ga vrlo poštujem i cenim, mislim da je doneo pozitivne promene u našem društvu. Sve više ljudi zahvaljujući internetu gleda različite podkaste, gleda različite emisije, dosta ljudi snima na YouTubu – čak i stranaca ali i naših ljudi koji su počeli da pričaju o mentalnom zdravlju – influenseri su počeli da pričaju o tome. I ono što sam ja posebno primetila zadnje dve godine primetićete da reklame često koriste stvari koje se tiču mentalnog zdravlja. Na neki način – to je meni na primer zanimljivo – da ranije u reklamama toga nije bilo, ali vi sada primetite da oni polako pod uticajem tog pozitivnog talasa i promene, da se priča o tome, ćete videti da reklama ima u sadržaju- na primer Schweppes je imao celu jednu kampanju koja je uključivala poruke koje se tiču mentalnog zdravlja i onda je ljudima to polako postalo da bude normalno. I više psiholog nije tabu nego nadam se da ćemo biti kao Portugal ili Brazil gde se kaže da svako ima svog psihijatra. Ja bih to volela kao što imamo zubara ili lekara, trenera, nije loše ni imati psihoterapeuta sa kojim s vremena na vreme pričamo, proverimo kako smo, prođemo neku razvojnu temu i onda prosto nema razloga da postoje predrasude, to su zdrave stvari i normalne. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Pa da ja se slažem. Malopre kada smo- pre nego što smo počeli da snimamo ti si baš lepo rekla – kao što odemo kod zubara svakih šest meseci, da vidimo jel imamo karijes, jel treba da se skidaju naslage, kvar, štagod i to nam je normalno, to ćemo lako da uradimo i da odlučimo. Ali da odemo da proverimo šta nam je sa dušom, na to se malo teže odlučujemo ili se odlučimo kada je dogorelo. I hajde molim te ponovi nam, ti si to baš lepo rekla, kada ne treba da idemo na terapiju? I u stvari kad treba da idemo?

Bojana Obradović: U suštini uvek treba da idemo, ali mi uglavnom odemo kada nam je prilično dogorelo. Ljudi dolaze na terapiju kada su dotakli dno. Kada je mnogo veći izazov ne otići na terapiju nego otići. Kada imaju ozbiljne probleme – pred neki raskid, pred razvod, kada previše dugo zaglave ne dajući ispite ili na poslu dožive sindrom izgaranja koji je prilično ozbiljno stanje, dolaze već u epizodi kliničke depresije, kada ih je anksioznost iscrpela, do lekova su već stigli i onda dolaze na terapiju po brzo rešenje. Zato što imaju ideju da je to odem par puta i razrešiću neke stvari. Naravno da nije tako. Nekad bude brže, nekad bude sporije. Ali bi bilo dobro da razvijemo kulturu kod ljudi da je terapija nešto što je normalno i da čim se primete neki simptomi koji su za njih atipični – znači neki povišeni srčani rad. Nije sve za kardiologa, nešto je i za psihologa. Znači bilo bi važno da kardiologe obučimo šta su napadi panike, da prepoznaju klijente koji imaju problem sa stresom i anksioznošću da ti ljudi popričaju sa nama da ne bi došlo do ozbiljnijih stanja. I kad bismo razvili takvu neku vrstu kulture, ja bih volela da se to recimo uvede u srednje škole i na fakultete. Da se ljudi obuče o mentalnom zdravlju i onda znaju da odu na vreme. Na primer nama se dešava da ljudi dođu u ozbiljnim godinama – 30, 40 i plus – i da tad saznaju da su oni anksiozni. Znači, oni ne znaju šta je anksioznost, nikad niko nije pričao sa njima o tome. Ceo život su se borili sa sobom, razvili su ozbiljna iracionalna uverenja da su defektni, da im nešto fali, da nešto ozbiljno nije u redu sa njima jer se osećaju drugačije ili su hipersenzitivni a niko nije znao da prepozna da je to takođe nešto što je normalno kod ljudi, samo treba drugačije postupiti, prilagoditi se takvoj deci. I ti ljudi u odraslom dobu dolaze sa poremećenom slikom o sebi. Koja naravno da može da se promeni, ali kad bismo mi to ranije znali i edukovali roditelje, vršnjake, učitelje, nastavnike, bilo bi nam mnogo bolje. I ti si mi rekla da voliš REBT, to je moja prva psihoterapija. 

Sanja Milosavljvić: Da, volela bih da nam ispričaš nešto o tome zato što si rekla da radiš u više modaliteta, pa nam ispričaj nešto o tome. REBT je meni- to sam ti rekla, znam ljude koji su prošli kroz REBT terapiju i prosto efekti terapije su bili fenomenalni.

Bojana Obradović: Da, rebt ti je racionalno emotivno bihevioralna terapija i meni se ona dopada. Na primer Albert Elis koji je osnovao rebt terapiju je u Americi išao u vrtiće i obučavao njihove vaspitačice šta su emocije a one su radile sa decom. Na primer meni bi to bilo fenomenalno kad bismo mi uspeli tako nešto da uvedemo u Srbiju. I zašto je ova terapija posebna po meni – zato što vraća odgovornost na pojedinca. Znači Albert Elis je dosta voleo filozofiju i Budizam, vraćao nas na period sada i ovde i nekako je učio da ne krivimo ni državu, ni roditelje ni prijatelje koji nam ne žele dobro nego da preuzmemo odgovornost i da sami sređujemo svoj život. Onako vratiš se kod sebe, počistiš prvo u svom dvorištu i ideš dalje. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E, a izvini što te prekidam – to počistiti svoje dvorište, to je toliko postalo- ne znam, fraza koju svako izgovara. Ali jel teško ili je jednostavno očistiti svoje dvorište, ili je više vidimo štroku kod komšije nego kod nas? Kako da- to me interesuje, kako da čovek prepozna ako ne znamo- ti si lepo rekla, da im se objasne emocije. Da su te vaspitačice objašnjavale deci emocije. Meni se čini da one u Srbiji ne prepoznaju ili su ne znam kako se to kaže u našem jeziku – odvojeni su od sebe. Ne prepoznaju ni kada im se dešava nešto što je traumatično, ne prepoznaju emocije, ne prepoznaju da su besni. Ili da su ljuti ili da- nemaju uopšte svest o tome. 

Bojana Obradović: Pa niko nas nije učio.

Sanja Milosavljević: To jeste, ja se slažem. A kako onda da čovek ako ima nedostatak znanja, kako da shvati da mu stvarno treba pomoć ili kako da shvati da baš rebt može da mu pomogne?

Bojana Obradović: Meni se čini da je dosta postalo kroz filmove pristupačno i ljudi kroz serije, naročito mlađe generacije doživljavaju terapiju kao okej mesto, kao mesto susreta samim sa sobom ili mesto gde ćeš da se poboljšaš. I to si lepo primetila, mi nismo u kontaktu sa emocijama. Nije baš nešto naša država poznata po tome. Mi onako volimo te- setite se srednje škole i Smrt majke Jugovića, mi volimo tu dramu, patetiku, mi smo samožrtvujući, jadni, uvek nam je teško. Imamo taj kulturološki momenat da patimo i da zapravo je to jedan deo- kolektivni teret. Krivica, patnja, ti si uvek žrtveno jagnje, uvek ti se loše stvari dešavaju. Prvi svetski rat, šta ti se desilo, kako uvek Srbima nameste. I onda šta se desi – kad imate jedan ceo transgeneracijski doživljaj da se nama stalno čini nešto loše i da mi nikad ne možemo biti odgovorni za sopstveni život, a mi nismo bili odgovorni to je Turci, razni- istorija je slala puno nekih tih poruka. Mi dolazimo u 21. vek gde možda i možemo da budemo odgovorni, ali mi nismo učeni. Naše babe i dede nisu učene toliko o tome, naši roditelji – tek je prošao II svetski rat, puno ljudi je izginulo. Mi dolazimo od generacije koje su doživele Tita i sad sloboda kreće. Onda dolazi naš milenijalac koji hoće da bude slobodan, i šta se tu desi? Ja bih da budem odgovoran, ali ja ne znam kako da budem odgovoran jer moji roditelji su živeli u nekom državnom sistemu, dobili posao posle fakulteta – nemamo role modele. Mi smo negde odjednom između zapada i istoka, naše prošlosti i naše budućnosti, hoćemo da se menjamo ali nemamo resurse i nemamo ni neke predispozicije. Tako da ja moram ipak malo da pravdam naše generacije zašto nismo dovoljno učeni. Ali, kad ljudi dođu na terapiju, počistite svoje dvorište znači razumeti šta pripada tebi, šta pripada prošlosti, šta nam donose naši preci, šta su oni na neki način kreirali kroz razne poruke koje su nam slali kroz odrastanje, šta nam sredina, naši vršnjaci šalju, onda državni sistem kao poruku nama pojedincima da preuzmemo odgovornost i svet, jel’te, mi smo deo planete zemlje, šta nam planeta zemlja tu šalje kao poruku nama kao ljudskim bićima. I onda kad to sve razumemo i počistimo svoje dvorište, mi možemo da shvatimo šta jeste naša odgovornost i šta ćemo vratiti drugima. Mi dok to ne uradimo, mi često zapravo kažemo “ali država mi nije dala posao”. Ili “moji roditelji mi nisu dovoljno pomogli”. Ili ovaj moj prijatelj je manje pametan od mene, ali bolje se snašao. Nismo nekako videli možda ima socijalne veštine koje mi nemamo. Možda smo mi super genijalni i imamo prosek desetku, ali ne umemo da se zauzmemo za sebe, stidljivi smo na razgovoru za posao, mislimo da je reći naše vrline i kvalitete narcisoidno. Ima ljudi koji odu na razgovor za posao, neće reći u čemu su dobri jer smatraju da je to- nekako nije ok. I onda im trebaju socijalne veštine. Na taj način to čišćenje dvorišta znači aha, hajde da vidiš šta bi ti kod sebe mogao da poboljšaš. Naravno da vidiš gde te drugi svesno sabotiraju pa da se od tih drugih skloniš, možda promeniš sredinu, možda neke ljude napustiš zauvek. Ali na taj način ti znaš zašto to radiš. Mi dok ne počistimo svoje dvorište, često projektujemo svoje probleme na druge ljude, drugima prebacujemo odgovornost koju mi treba da ponesemo ili se zaglavimo, živimo u blatu i samo kukamo. A Srbija je poznata i po saradničkoj ruminaciji, a to je onaj momenat kad odete na kafu i sad svi kolektivno krivimo nekoga, i onda se lepo utopimo u to i onda smo kao “hm, pa nije moglo biti bolje”. Tako da u tom kontekstu rebt nas vrati na ličnu odgovornost, ali nas nauči i gde su drugi bili odgovorni. Jer kad spoznaš svoju odgovornost onda spoznaš gde je bila odgovornost drugih pa je mnogo lakše praviti granicu. 

Sanja Milosavljević: E to mi je interesantno isto kod rebt terapije kad sam ja to nešto čitala, razmišljala, u krajnjem slučaju i pripremala se za ovaj razgovor – jel nas rebt malo oslobađa one- onog čuvenog izgovora “krivi su roditelji”. To je odgovornost mojih roditelja. Jer imamo taj kao prvi rani razvojni period je najvažniji za nas kad porastemo i sazremo u neke odrasle osobe. I onda šta god da ne valja i šta god da nam ne ide od ruke i polja u kojima smo neuspešni – e onda možemo da krivimo roditelje. To je najlakši izgovor, kao ne znam – nisu me naučili, nisu mi dali- nisu imali razumevanja i tako dalje. Jel nas rebt malo nam pokaže kao pa nije, ima nešto što je i do nas samih. 

Bojana Obradović: Ja mislim da on pravi neku vrstu saradništva između ta dva. Da, naši roditelji jesu odgovorni za to što nam nisu pružili neka znanja, neke veštine ili ljubav, u krajnjem slučaju – neki roditelji nam ne daju ni ljubav. Ali rebt ti kaže da, oni ti to nisu dali. I pošto je prošlost nešto na šta u svakom slučaju ne možeš da utičeš, ne možeš da promeniš, možeš da promeniš kako se ti osećaš u vezi sa tom prošlosti i možeš da promeniš kako ćeš ti da utičeš da ta prošlost ne odredi ni sadašnjost ni budućnost. Znači sad mi nećemo reći da nije važno što oni to nisu pružili. Da, važno je, to je svakako uticalo na naš razvoj. Ali šta ćeš sad? Da li ćeš da ostaneš u ovom mestu i da narednih 30 godina do smrti sebe samosažaljevaš, obezvređuješ, kriviš njih, ili ćeš da kažeš oni nisu bili okej u vezi toga, ali ja sada želim da ja postanem dovoljno dobar roditelj samom sebi. Ja želim da budem tu za sebe i da napravim sebi bolju budućnost, na kraju krajeva možda sutra da dam svojoj deci ono što nisam dobio. Znači to je neka vrsta “i”. Znači nije odbacivanje, nego neka vrsta- oni jesu odgovorni, to je jako važno, ne treba ni da poreknemo da se nešto loše desilo. To uvek postoji kao deo naše istorije. Ali treba da idemo dalje jer jednostavno je jako važno da umemo da integrišemo to iskustvo, da ga pounutrimo, da kažemo to se dogodilo, da podelimo šta kome pripada i da idemo dalje. I to je super kod rep, i kod šema terapije i kod trećeg talasa, na kraju krajeva kod svake terapije. Ja ne poznajem svaku dovoljno, nisam svaku završila ali mislim da svaka terapija nas pomera ka tome. Ali da je rebt jako dopadljiv ljudima zato što objašnjava kako funkcioniše terapija i ljudi razumevaju kako je došlo do terapijske promene. I to je ja mislim čar ove terapije. Ljudi uz pomoć domaćih zadataka i kada promene svoja iracionalna uverenja u racionalna menjaju i kako se osećaju, a onda imaju i iskustvenu promenu, odnosno moraju da se ponašaju drugačije. Imaju taj jedan ABC model što je naročito nekim kategorijama ljudi fantastično da rade takve vrste domaćih zadataka i onda se oni osećaju sposobnim da sutra budu sami sebi terapeuti i to je dobar deo celog trećeg talasa CBT-a, što naši klijenti konačno razumeju kada se dogodila terapijska promena, na koji način i kako sutra sami sebi da pomognu. Neke druge vrste terapijskih pravaca koji takođe rade, malo imaju tu misterije – nije njima jasno kako im je bolje. I onda se ne osećaju okej, nešto se dešava ali ne znaju šta se dešava ni kako se dešava. A za ljude koji mnogo vole objašnjavanja, rebt terapija je kao o, odlično sad ću da razumem šta se desilo i kako. I zato im se mnogo sviđa. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Pa to, racionalno. To je jedna od ključnih reči za rebt. Koje na primer probleme može da nam reši rebt? Ja nešto ne znam sad, ti si stručna, ali jel može rebt da reši neke ozbiljne kliničke depresije ili neka ozbiljna poremećena stanja ličnosti ili je on na primer za ta neka pogrešna uverenja? Gde je najučinkovitiji, ajde, gde daje najbolje rezultate?

Bojana Obradović: Pa postoji-

Sanja Milosavljević: Ili ja grešim? Ili, ono…

Bojana Obradović: Ne, ne okej je sasvim, svako pitanje smeš da postaviš. Sve je okej, tako bih i ja pitala da sam laik za neku drugu oblast, sigurno bih tako pitala tako da super. Istraživanja pokazuju da je rebt odličan za depresiju, za anksioznost, za napade panike, za fobije. Postoje protokoli koliko seansi se radi, kako za seksualne probleme, za erektalnu disfunkciju. Međutim rebt i ceo treći talas CBT je dobar i u radu sa poremećajima ličnosti. S tim što mi sada ozbiljno razmišljamo- ja se nadam da će se to uvesti i u Srbiji – da to ne nazivamo poremećaji ličnosti, meni se ne dopada taj izraz, nego da govorimo o jednom produženom reakciji- jedan produženi PTSD, gde su ljudi doživeli određene vrste traumatičnih iskustava, ili veliki broj razvojnih trauma i onda se nešto dogodilo u strukturi ličnosti. Znači nisu oni koji imaju problem defektni, znači nešto im se dogodilo i kada tako pristupimo mnogo je veća stopa oporavka, poboljšavaju se stvari, drugačije se posmatra osoba samu sebe. I mogu da kažem da sada trenutno rebt uvodi i taj deo za traumu, tako da oni tek rade ta istraživanja. Sad i u edukaciji se uvodi taj deo. Kad sam ja studirala i išla na edukaciju nije se toliko pričalo o traumama i radu sa traumama. Više smo se fokusirali na poremećaj ličnosti, anksioznost, depresiju i vi vremenom shvatite da svaki modalitet polako se razvija. Znači nije to gotovo, svaka škola i dalje se razvija na primer psihoanaliza koja je postala u jednom momentu relaciona pa uvodi neke stvari koje smo mi dobili iz trećeg talasa. Na kraju krajeva rebt je morao da uvede priču o detinjstvu, iako je on bio učinkovit, u nekom momentu su shvatili da se klijenti vraćaju. Meni je to bilo zanimljivo kod rebta. Dobijete prilično dobru- klijent je dobro, dobro, dobro, međutim on se vraća kod vas. Zašto se vraća, zbog terapijskog odnosa jer je to jedna od najvažnijih delova terapije i najviše menja. I onda shvatite da ipak postoji neki neispričani deo priče, da su oni vrlo funkcionalni sada i ovde, da su na primer ostvarili uspešnu ljubavnu vezu i zaposlili se i desi se mobing na poslu i oni dolaze sa ozbiljnim simptomima. Šta se desilo? Zapravo, to je njih triggerovalo neko traumatično iskustvo iz detinjstva. Ili imaju zdravu partnersku vezu, ali primećuju da se prema svom partneru – dečku, devojci – ponašaju na način koji nije okej i kada uđemo dublje u tu priču zapravo shvatimo da postoje neke priče iz detinjstva koje nikad nisu bile ispričane, koje je važno da sada ispričamo, da im damo neki kontekst, da promenimo ponašanje, da primetimo šta su triggeri. Tako da po meni rebt je dobra terapija izbora, naročito ako želimo brzu terapijsku promenu, ako imamo jake simptome, ako hoćemo da se stabilizujemo da na neki način pomognemo sebi da izađemo iz depresije. Čak šta više u nekom broju slučajeva u mom iskustvu – ne mogu pričati o kolegama – se dešavalo da ljudi nisu pili lekove. Da smo imali dogovore da se rade dnevnice i da se aktiviraju i da su ljudi uspeli da izguraju promenu. Često se desi taj krug da vam ljudi dođu do tog trenutka kada ipak mi moramo da pričamo o tom detinjstvu. Naravno da ćemo ga staviti u kontektst i rebta i drugih terapija, ali ta priča je nekako se uvek vrati i evo posle toliko godina iskustva ja mislim da se kvalitetna terapija ne može izvršiti a da ne saznate o klijentu te stvari i to je možda neka zamerka koja će se nadam se sada poboljšati – nije moje da poboljšavam to svakako – nego samim edukatorima i tvorcima terapije, da neke priče ne mogu biti ispričane. Da ipak je jako važno da mi čujemo i o porodičnom sistemu i o transgeneracijskim traumama i o tim roditeljima. To je ona priča sa “i” koju sam rekla, ali često se desi u rebtu da imate na primer neku vrstu problematike koja se uspešno razreši ali se ne ispriča i vi ne znate to o klijentu. To se na primer događa i ljudi će vam reći da su otišli, dobili ono što im treba i to je skroz okej. E to je možda onaj deo što si ti pričala da su to neki ljudi koji imaju situacione probleme. I zaista oni su na primer imali dovoljno dobro detinjstvo, dovoljno dobre roditelje, sve je okej, nije bilo vršnjačkog nasilja, nije bilo nekih velikih razvojnih trauma, ali su oni sad doživeli u sada i ovde neku situaciju koja ih je izbacila iz šina. Odemo na posao, kapitalizam, doživimo mobing. Mi, naročito ako nikad nismo imali u svom životu iskustvo sa lošim ponašanjem – da nas neko etiketira, da nas neko zlostavlja, da nas neko povisi glas na nas, mi možemo doživeti akutnu stresnu reakciju, možemo osetiti veliku anksioznost ili na primer ako izgubimo prvi put u životu nekoga – egzistencijalna kriza, pitanje o smislu života – i onda doći na terapiju. Mi smo bazično funkcionalna osoba, imamo dobre vrednosti, dobra racionalna uverenja, stabilni smo, ali nešto je prvi put došlo u susret sa nama što je nepoznato i želimo da se dobro razumemo. I tu je na primer super zato što nam daje neku vrstu fokusa, širine, kako vaše misli oblikuju vas, na koji način da doživite svoje emocije i da menjate ponašanje. Tako da može i bez toga, ali ređe.

Sanja Milosavljević: Jao da, zato si- spomenula si lekove. Ja nešto nisam- ne mogu da kažem da nisam pristalica, ali nisam ni protiv lekova. Dok se ne postigne ravnoteža hormona, zašto da ne, treba uvesti jer čini mi se da je onda i put ka isceljenju i rešenju problema bolji. Ne brži, nego jednostavno bolji i kvalitetniji. Ali da li se olako- u našoj kulturi je poznato, svi nešto- neke pilulice gutaju, bensedini ovo ono. Jel to- znam da si- pročitala sam negde neki podatak ali ne mogu da kažem jer sam zaboravila. Nešto smo previše bensedina popili u protekloj godini, na primer, ili u proteklih pet godina. Zašto nam je lako da uzmemo lek, ali nam je teško da pričamo? 

Bojana Obradović: Pa opet bih rekla kulturološki i transgeneracijski, to je onaj momenat u stara vremena kako kažu kafica i rakijica ujutro. Kad se dođe sa polja normalno je da se popije pola kila rakijice, tako su nažalost veliki broj ljudi smirivao svoje anksioznosti. Ja mislim da se kulturološki nije prepoznavalo da ljudi imaju problema sa stresom i sa strahovima već se to nekako anesteziralo kao što na primer u Americi postoji zloupotreba marihuane gde se takođe anestezira taj osećaj unutrašnjeg neizdrža, nemira, uznemirenosti i na neki način mi u sebi potisnemo dublje emocije. E u Srbiji je bromazepam i bensedin broj jedan. Kao što je Amerika prozak nacija. I na taj način mi ćemo ili zapaliti cigaretu, popiti alkohol ili uzeti lek zato što su na kraju krajeva naši roditelji – bake i deke – ti koji su uzimali lekove. To se normalizovalo i to je nekako-

Sanja Milosavljević: Aha, to je model koji je već prihvaćen. To smo unedrili.

Bojana Obradović: Da vi ćete čuti od klijenata “Mama mi je dala bromazepam”, vi ćete čuti u apoteci bez problema možete kupiti lekove za koje je neophodan recept. Znači to je jedna sistemska zloupotreba lekova koja se sigurno zna na državnom nivou a ne reaguje se zbog nje. Na psihoterapiji mi psiholozi ne prepisujemo lekove, to rade psihijatri. I vi ćete uvek dobiti od svog psihoterapeuta ej, ipak je važno da sad popričate sa psihijatrom. Mi ćemo se konsultovati, videćemo da li su lekovi neophodni. Oni će se piti tri meseca, šest meseci do godinu dana – zna se zašto se piju lekovi, koji lekovi se piju, na koji način se smanjuje doza, povećava, prestaje i koje su nuspojave. I to je jedan ozbiljan proces u koji ni psihijatar ni psiholog neće ući tek tako. Nego će zaista kada je neophodno. A onda će vam doći klijent na terapiju koji ozbiljno zloupotrebljava bensedine i vi imate problem da mu objasnite da to nije ok. Prosto to je neki deo kulture gde se normalizovalo nešto što po meni nije ok, nije normalno. I mi moramo sistematski da pričamo o tome. Da pre svega država preuzme tu ulogu zaštite da se u apoteke uvedu kazne, da to ne sme da se radi. A onda ljudi kojima to stvarno treba da mogu da uzimaju lekove. Jer na taj način vi- evo izraziću se malo opušteno – otupljujete svoje emocije i neurološki sistem i vi i ne znate kako se osećate. Znači možda postoje situacije koje vi i možete da podnesete, ali pošto ste navikli da uzmete Bromazepam, vi ćete ga uzeti u situacijama kada možete da izdržite bez njega. Bićete blago anksiozni, dan će biti u redu, ali vi ste navikli da sebi kažete aha, evo ljudi kažu idem na posao, danas imam prezentaciju, biće teško – uzeću jednu pilulu. I na taj način- 

Sanja Milosavljević: Ili popiću čašu nekog alkohola ili slično. Mislim, ja nisam protiv ni lekova ni alkoholnih pića ali ne da se zloupotrebljava nego da se upotebljava, da ima svrhu. Mada dobro u našoj kulturi je to što si rekla – mi ne možemo da zamislimo slavlje ikakvo bez alkoholnog pića. Mi smo imali taj slučaj pre jedno 15-tak godina, naš prijatelj je slavio rođenje deteta i nikakav alkohol- a tek rođenje deteta je ono. I nikakav alkohol nije služio. Koliko su svi bili besni. Koliko su svi bili ljuti na njega. Kao kako je moguće, pa kako on misli da se veselimo. Pa rekoh veselite se, rodilo se dete. Pustite muziku, cepajte čoveka, ali nije vam potreban alkohol da biste se radovali nečemu. Tako da ono kad treba- da kažem nisam protiv ni jednog ni drugog, samo da se zna mera. A hoćeš da nam kažeš nešto – šta je trauma? I ako možeš da nam objasniš koja je razlika između traumatičnog iskustva i same traume?

Bojana Obradović: Okej, znači trauma je neki događaj koji nam se desi previše iznenada i koji je za nas preplavljujući tako da naše telo zapravo ne može da odreaguje u tom trenutku. I onda se dešavaju procesi koji mogu da se odigraju tako što se borimo, tako što se zaledimo ili bežimo. I naše telo jednostavno traumu pamti kroz naš nervni sistem, kroz razne vrste sećanja, kroz razne vrste senzacija, uverenja koja stičemo o sebi i drugima u tom trenutku i emocije. Mi vrlo često možemo disasocirati, ne biti u tom trenutku sa sobom i osećati jednu vrstu preplavljenosti. Traume mogu biti nešto što se desi u jednom trenutku situaciono, kao što smo imali poplave pa smo svi doživeli to – nesreće, izbeglištva, rat – ali mogu biti i razvojne, gde se dešavaju kontinuirano duži vremenski period. Na primer roditelji se stalno svađaju, mi ne znamo da li ćemo dobiti batine ili ne kad tata uđe u sobu, neko od roditelja je alkoholičar i onda mi kontinuirano doživljavamo da je naše okruženje nebezbedno. Znači to su razvojne traume koje se dešavaju, dešavaju kontinuirano i ostavljaju posledice, a traumatično iskustvo je nešto što nam se dogodilo ali mi sad možemo to da integrišemo ili ne možemo, zavisno kako smo ga obradili, i ono nas sad destabilište ili smo ga pounutrili pa možemo da idemo dalje i da pričamo o njemu. Ja mislim da kulturološki gledano mi svi imamo jedne ili druge vrste trauma. Možda ih nikada nismo nazvali traumom, čak i mi na fakultetu koji smo učili toliko o tome. Evo ja se sećam kad sam otišla kod- na svoju terapiju pa je moj terapeut nazvao moje iskustvo terapijom, ja sam onako stala “a to je trauma?”. Zašto se to dogodi? Jer je u Srbiji nažalost normalno da vam se loše stvari dešavaju. Vi kad odete u srednjoj školi pa čitate Dostojevskog, različite vrste priča “Prvi put s ocem na jutrenje”, vi učite da se loše stvari događaju, da su sve porodice nesrećne na svoj način i da svako ima tu tužnu priču. I mi nekako normalizujemo nenormalno. Znači mi smo normalizovali generacijama loše stvari – naša istorija u srednjem veku sa Turcima, ratovi, gubici, pešačenje po Albaniji, mi smo navikli da nam se nešto loše dešava. I kad neko to naše iskustvo nazove traumom, mi smo šokirani jer je to kod nas normalno i ljudi kad dođu na terapiju i kad im kažemo da to što se dogodilo je zapravo bilo preplavljujuće za njihovo telo, oni tek tada počinju da razumevaju šta im se desilo. Tek tada shvate zašto oni često projektuju stvari na druge ljude, zašto su često puni besa, zašto se loše ponašaju prema drugima, šta se to dešava u njihovom telu, zašto se zamrznu. Na primer, odu na razgovor za posao neko povisi ton i oni se zalede. Ne znajući da je to jako povezano na primer sa batinama koje su dobijali kao dete. Ili na primer tata pre nego što će da ti razbije glavu o sto on digne obrvu i vama šef kad hoće da uputi konstruktivnu kritiku digne obrvu, a klijent dolazi preplavljen kaže da ima stomačne probleme, temperaturu, da ne ide na posao, da se odseca – šta shvatimo? Šta radi vaš šef, on digne obrvu. To je bezazlena situacija, ali ljudi dolaze sa ozbiljnim simptomima i tek kasnije shvatimo da zapravo to povezano sa njihovim traumatičnim iskustvom gde su bili zlostavljani, dobijali ozbiljne pretnje po njihovo biće i onda shvate aha, zato se ja zaledim sada i ovde. I ta priča o traumama je u Srbiji jako važna zato što smo mi previše neke stvari podrazumevali i zato što smo ih svi doživeli, onda kažemo tvoja priča više nije važna. Ajde pusti ti to, i mene su tukli. Šta ti je to, batina je iz raja izašla. Svi smo mi to doživeli nekako, to je sad jedan kolektivni mindset da su to skroz normalne stvari i nama je nejasno zašto onda ljudi se bune, zašto reaguju, zašto sve nazivaju traumom. Ja mislim da je došlo vreme da naše društvo zapravo prihvati da mi jesmo visoko traumatizovana nacija, transgeneracijski, da to kreće od postanka samih Srba i da dok to ne obradimo, ne integrišemo, ne možemo imati baš zdrave potomke. Jer kad razrešite traume dolazi do promena, dešava se i epigeneza i na neki način se sve menja i zapravo stvarate i zdravije potomke. I nije ni čudo. Zapravo malo ljudi zna ali mi na fakultetu smo učili da prva generacija dece od Jevreja koji su bili u Holokaustu je bila izmenjena, da su njihovi geni bili drugačiji i da njih zovu žive sveće. Da su bili skloni anksioznosti, da su imali veće probleme sa alkoholom, da su se osećali nesigurnije, manje samopouzdanja u odnosu na svoje vršnjake. Ništa nije bilo što ih je izdvajalo osim toga da su im roditelji doživeli takvo traumatično iskustvo. Znači traume menjaju naše biće, ostavljaju promene unutar nas i jako je važno da pričamo o tome jer može da se desi da vi ono što doživljavate možda i nema veze sa vama nego možda ima veze sa vašim precima a vi niste toga uopšte svesni. Tako da je to jedna vrlo ozbiljna i široka priča koja se trenutno dešava u Srbiji. Postoji jedan divan projekat zove se “Trauma naša priča”. Tijana Mirović i Marko Tomašević odličan posao rade na tu temu i prilično su nas otvorili ka tome. Sad snimaju jedan podkast gde se priča o takvim iskustvima i mi sve više smo spremni da i priznamo sebi meni se nešto loše desilo. I nije to bilo tolko normalno koliko smo mi voleli to da normalizujemo. Ja mislim da su naši preci morali da to normalizuju da bi preživeli – to je okej. Oni su živali u nekom drugom vremenu, možda je tako za njih moralo. Za nas sada i ovde kada je produžen životni vek, kada se suočavamo sa novim izazovima, moramo nešto da menjamo zbog naše dece.

Sanja Milosavljević: Da, da, to si baš lepo rekla. Da moramo da menjamo zbog naše dece. A hoćeš da nam kažeš nešto o šemi. Odnosno, ja je zovem shema, ali ti je zoveš šema, jel da? Šema terapija. 

Bojana Obradović: Šema terapija je nešto- 

Sanja Milosavljević: I hvala ti mnogo zato što ova priča o traumi je- mogli bismo sate i sate da pričamo o traumi. Hvala ti što si uspela da tako da…nekako sažmeš u nekoliko rečenica. A šta je šema?

Bojana Obradović: Da, šema pripada trećem talasu KBT-a i Džefri Jang, tvorac šema terapije je onako jedan vrlo sličan meni lik, moram to da kažem. On se bavio i psihoanalizom i KBT-om, međutim shvatio je da to baš ne funkcioniše najbolje za njegove klijente i u jednom momentu počeo je da radi ozbiljna istraživanja da vidi zašto to nije dovoljno učinkovito, naročito sa poremećajem ličnosti i zapravo je došao do ozbiljne priče o traumi i do ozbiljne priče o detinjstvu i da mi dok ne razrešimo to sa našim klijentima, njima ne može biti dovoljno dobro. Oni će se vraćati na terapiju ili će imati probleme sa depresijom, unutrašnjom prazninom i neće sebe razumevati. Tako da je šema terapija, terapija koja se odlično po meni nadograđuje na rebt kao da su stvorene jedna za drugu. Mislim, jeste na neki način vrsta nadogradnje koja nama rebtovcima, KBT-u i slično pomaže da zapravo uđemo sa klijentima u priču o detinjstvu, da razumemo njihovo traumatsko iskustvo i uz pomoć tehnika promenimo to traumatsko iskustvo. Šta se zapravo dešava? To je ja ono kažem jedna vrsta magije, ali nije magija, vrlo je naučno osnovana, gde vi radite sa klijentom na traumatičnim iskustvima i uz pomoć tehnika menjate neurološki odgovor na to. Znači klijent koji se nekada zaledio sada će praviti akciju. Klijent koji se stalno borio sada će naučiti da se ne bori. Jer imate ljude koji su u traumi- na primer to je bio moj omiljeni odgovor, ja sam se stalno borila kao dete. I onda sam navikla da se borim i kad ne treba. I onda to postaje u odraslom dobu problematično jer se vi i protiv ljudi s kojima ne treba da se borite, u odnosima u kojima treba da se prepustite i budete okej, vi ste stalno u nekoj napetosti i želite da se zauzimate za sebe a nemate protivnika i na neki način stalno očekujete neku vrstu opasnosti. Tu vam šema terapija zapravo pomaže da razumevate šta pripada prošlosti, a šta pripada sada i ovde i kako da kreirate jednu bolju budućnost i to je jedna vrsta terapije gde postoji i dosta rada na terapijskom odnosu gde terapeut se konfrontira klijentu, što baš nije tipično za druge terapije gde vi vodite klijenta, prilično mu direktno objašnjavate neke stvari, ali pravite i granicu i vi ste na neki način instrument promene. Ako je klijent previše pasivan, vi ga gurkate – imate pravo da ga gurkate. Ako je klijent previše dominantan ili krši granice, vi mu postavljate granice. Vi ste zapravo u jednoj vrsti parentifikovanog – oni su parentifikovana deca pa ste vi njihovi roditelji, to se zove imitirano roditeljstvo. Vi sad odigravate tu ulogu koja im je nedostajala u životu i učite ih kako da se postave i dajete im tu ulogu koju nisu dobili. I to je za njih odlično. Ironično klijenti šta rade, oni to rade sa svojim partnerima. Oni od partnera očekuju da su im ili najboljih prijatelja, da im budu ti koji će ih spasiti. I onda partner mora da uradi sve ili partner mora da bude roditelj. Ako je partner roditelj, vrlo često dolazi do gubitka seksualne želje jer niko ne želi da spava sa svojim roditeljima i onda ljudi dolaze sa problemima u vezi. A mi shvatimo da oni u partnerskoj vezi odigravaju decu od 5-6 godina, 10 godina, da su zaglavljeni na tom periodu i kroz šema terapiju vi pravite most na osnovu tih iskustava, menjate ih i dajete im potpuno novi okvir. Tako da je to za mene lepo i drugačije za nas terapeute jer mi inače imamo malo- mislim, rebt je inače aktivna terapija, ali ovde je i aktivnija i imate jednu vrstu empatičke konfrontacije koja mislim da je jako važna i za nas terapeute pošto mi obično nekako nemamo baš pravo nikakve direktivnosti, nikada ne govorimo nešto. Ali vi ovde smete kad procenite da kažete klijentu al sad ne možete više da pijete alkohol. Znači jednostavno vi imate- to je ozbiljna vrsta zavisnosti, ne možemo da bismo nastavili da radimo vi morate da preuzmete tu odgovornost. I to je neki momenat na primer vi shvatite da taj klijent nema nikoga u svojoj okolini ko će mu to reći – nema roditelje koji će mu to reći, nema partnera koji će mu to reći jer je izabrao partnera koji mu neće postaviti tu granicu. Vi ste ta osoba i onda edukujete klijenta zašto ste vi postavili tu granicu. Šta se dogodilo, do čega dolazi što je onako super i meni se dopada jer razvije i nas terapeute u nekom novom smislu i to je jako važno da i vi imate dosta supervizija da pratite i sebe. Kako vi kao terapeut se ponašate, da li vi prelazite neku granicu, uzimate neku slobodu, dajete savete koje ne treba da dajete. To je sad na primer za mene izazovno lično jer mi na terapiji nema- ranije smo učili da se nikad ne daju direktno saveti. A ovo je terapija koja ipak uključuje drugačiju vrstu davanja saveta odnosno vođenje i usmeravanje koje oni nisu imali kroz odrastanje pa je i za nas važno da se i mi menjamo. Tako da eto ja to doživljavam kao neku vrstu ličnog razvoja. 

Sanja Milosavljević: A kako ti uopšte izgleda ta priča o ličnom razvoju? To se sada dosta površno uzima i svi nešto kao rade- što je super, ja stvarno nemam ništa protiv toga, kako god – fizički, psihički, mentalno, svaka sitnica je važna. Ne možemo da je odbacimo. Ali se čini mi se olako govori, sad svi nešto rade na sebi. I šta misliš o tome, i šta misliš o onome – meni to malo smeta sad ne znam da li je to do mene – ima ono “budite najbolja verzija sebe”. Stalno nam neko šalje poruku budite najbolja verzija sebe, gde sam se ja zapitala a što ja jednostavno ne bih prihvatila sebe, izmenila ono što ne valja, poboljšala ono što može da se poboljša i samo da se sklopim, a ne da budem verzija 2.0. Stalno da se raspadam i sastavljam – bolje jednom to da uradim i da to budem ja, ne budem verzija sebe. Odnosno verzije sebe. Pa šta misliš o tome? 

Bojana Obradović: Da, mislim da znam zašto ti se sviđa rebt. Rebt sam po sebi ima- je uveo koncept bezuslovnog prihvatanja sebe da vi i dok radite na sebi možete da volite sebe.  Znači da prosto volite sebe, poštujete sebe, imate određenu vrstu zdravog razuma i nekako ste okej sa tim da ste nesavršeni. Vi možete da kažete sebi imam 10kg viška i to mi se jako ne dopada, ali ja ću da radim na tome, ićiću na trening i zdravo ću se hraniti, ali istovremeno i volim sebe. Ja sam ustala ujutro i mogu da se volim danas takvu kakva jesam. Imate čak jednu vežbu da se gledate nagi u ogledalu i da se prihvatate to svoje nesavršeno telo, iako zdravorazumski imate tu težnju da imate bolje zdravlje, bolju liniju, više mišića. E to znači čak i u ovom psihološkom konstruktu da mi kakva god da smo verzija sebe, možemo da volimo sebe i da smo okej sa tim. A da težimo nekoj boljoj verziji ako razumemo zašto nam treba ta bolja verzija. To je meni sasvim okej. Ja želim da sam spiritualnija na primer i radim na tom razvoju – neko ide kroz Budizam, neko ide kroz religiju, neko ide kroz neke druge vrste pravaca, škola, neko želi da je edukovaniji i da završi fakultet. I poštuj to, voli to kod sebe i idi dalje – ja ću biti bolja verzija sebe. Ali to je neka vrsta budite najbolja verzija sebe, onako malo se nameće taj narcisizam koji nam stalno traži da budemo savršeni. Da budemo idealni da bismo uopšte vredeli i trenutno je eto moram da napomenem da američke studije pokazuju da je porast narcisizma u ovim generacijama. Da nam to tek sledi, videćemo kako će biti u Srbiji. Gde neke poruke dolaze iz tog društvenog, kako bih rekla, ajde trenda. Znači društveni trend gde mnoge generacije na internetu stalno su našminkani, stalno se dobro oblače, uvek su idealni i onda sa njima dolazi ta poruka o sebi. Kao što na primer za generacije iza nas dok je bio glavni Tito, bio je taj momenat kolektivnog. Svi za jednog, jedan za sve. I nekako svaka generacija ima neku priču o sebi .E sad nam je ova priča to je loša strana interneta da svi moramo biti super da bismo uopšte uspeli. Što nije baš istina. Mi možemo biti okej i svejedno da uspemo i možemo da se volimo, ali to su neke poruke koje treba videti i skloniti. Ono kao, kako da ugasite notifikaciju. Ovo mi- ovo meni baš ne radi posao. Kome radi, super, ali za mene baš nije okej. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Dobro. Dobro, hvala ti. Volela bih da te pitam sad da ne bude da nam prepričavaš istoriju rebta i šeme – kako si ti? Kako si ti provela prošlu godinu, šta se promenilo? Šta je- na koji način je uti- ja sam ti rekla pre samog razgovora ja sam pred kraj prošle godine imala stvarno ozbiljnih- više nisam mogla da izdržim koronu. Nisam više- toliko mi je bilo teško da sam neadekvatno reagovala na neke gluposti, na neke sitnice na koje inače ne bih uopšte obratila pažnju, nego sam ja verovatno bila stalno napeta, anksiozna i ono. A kako je to bilo kod tebe? Sad ja ne znam da svi ljudi misle da su terapeuti i psihoterapeuti uvek zen. Ja znam neke tvoje kolege i koleginice koji nisu zato što su ljudi. Kako je to bilo kod tebe?

Bojana Obradović: Da. I mi smo kao drugi. Imamo dobre dane, loše dane, grozne dane. I vrlo iracionalna ponašanja. Malo sam razmišljala o tome pre nego što sam došla ovde jer si mi najavila da ćeš me to pitati. Ja mislim da je to onako jedan ozbiljan i emocionalni i praktični rollercoaster bio u tome. Korona me sačekala baš u momentu kad sam trebala da otvorim svoje savetovalište sa drugaricom i nekako svi naši planovi su preko noći pali u vodu. Prostor koji smo iznajmile i plaćale neko vreme nismo na kraju ni ušle u njega. Nikad nismo znale kada ćemo krenuti ponovo da radimo uživo. U međuvremenu desilo se i to vanredno stanje i svi smo bili zatvoreni u kućama i ja sam moram priznati imala shopping maniju. Nekako u nekom momentu sam lečila svoje emocije tako što sam kupovala stvari koje mislim da mi apsolutno nisu trebale. Ali srećom to je trajalo samo mesec dana i nekako mislim da smo svi patili u vezi toga. I onda nekako kako su prolazila 2-3 meseca to se normalizovalo. Za mene mislim da je nekako bilo najšokantnije tih prvih mesec i po dana. Onako iznenada smo zatvoreni i sve se menja, prelazi se na rad od kuće. Ja ne volim- nisam bila pripremljena da radim od kuće. Nemam ni radni sto. Tako da nekako mi je trebalo neko vreme da se pomirim sa tim da ću ipak kupiti radni sto, da ću kupiti fotelju, da je to narednih godinu dana, dve, tri moj život. Nije mi bio nepoznat online rad, ja radim tako sa klijentima već godinama, ali nisam očekivala da ću raditi nonstop. To me prilično zateklo nespremnu i mislim da me to onako jedan period uvelo i u neku vrstu otupljenosti. Da stalno sedite pred ekranom, sve je isto i ne znate gde ste. Tako da što se tiče tog poslovnog dela bilo mi je potrebno privikavanje, nisam u početku bila spremna za to. A ni klijenti, trebalo je vreme da se prilagodimo da sad radimo online. Oni koji nikad nisu radili online. Oni koji jesu njima je već sve ostalo isto. Ali sa druge strane baš sam razmišljala to je moje malo priznanje, žao mi je prijatelji i porodica, ali ja toliko volim tu godinu jer sam konačno bila u kontaktu sa svojom- mene svi doživljavaju kao ekstroverta ali ja sam izgleda neki introvert – meni nikad nije bilo lepše. Znači ja moram da priznam, to ostajanje kod kuće da ne moram da se vidim sa ljudima, da ne moram da odem za Božić i Uskrs- izvinjavam se mama i tata. Ali meni je to toliko prijalo i svi su bili šokirani jer ja sam bila kao “moje knjigice, moja šetnjica”, nikog ne moram da vidim, ne moram ništa da se dogovorim, jer nekako moj život je društveni dosta aktivan i to je stalno bilo – posle posla idemo da se vidimo. Vikendi. Ja nisam ni shvatala koliko sam ja umorna. Ja nisam ni shvatala koliko ja zapravo konstantno sam sa ljudima i nisam sama, tako da je ovo za mene bilo takvo punjenje baterija. Ja sam sad puna želje da se vidim sa ljudima, ali kao da je i mom telu trebalo da usporimo. I ta činjenica da nisam sa ljudima mi je nekako pomogla da shvatim kolika je ta količina vremena koju želim da provodim sa ljudima. Mi koji radimo s ljudima nekako zaboravimo da to jeste iscrpljujuće jer smo navikli – to je nama terapeutima normalno. Da stalno smo u tim procesima.

Sanja Milosavljević: Vi ste kao u nekom treningu stalnom.

Bojana Obradović: E upravo to. I onda nekako ovo- nemogućnost da vidim svoje ljude mi je pomogla da shvatim kako kvalitetnije da se viđam sa njima i drugačije. Ali isto tako i da prihvatim tu stranu da mi nije potrebno toliko kontakta. To mi ranije- nisam ni znala to o sebi. Ili sam se promenila, shvatiću šta se tačno desilo. I meni to prilično prija. Ne znam kako je drugima, mislim da su neki doživeli ozbiljne periode usamljenosti i kriza. Napade anksioznosti i kako biti sam, a meni je to evo i sad jako prija i nekako prilično uživam u tom smanjenom intenzitetu socijalnih kontakata. 

Sanja Milosavljević: A jel važno da budemo sami? Na primer, ja sam taj introvert i to znam odavno. I nemam uopšte problem s tim i baš mi odgovara da sam sama. I najbolje se regenerišem i oporavim baš kad sam potpuno sama. Imam ja prijatelje, porodicu, supruga, ne znam šta, ali da se osamim, regenerišem i onda mogu da budem ona ista stara. A jel se plašimo da budemo sami, jel nam to malo frka? Da se izrazim ovako.

Bojana Obradović: Pa nekima da. Naročito ako smo živeli u porodicama gde je simbioza, pa nema granica, pa sve radimo zajedno, non stop smo zajedno. Biti sam često može biti preplavljujuće iskustvo. Na primer postoje roditelji koji nam ne razviju socijalne veštine ne znamo kako da uključimo veš mašinu, platimo račun ili spavamo u mraku. Postoje porodice koje su toliko spojene i nema nikakvih granica da mi kad ostanemo sami prosto se prepadnemo. Ali postoji i taj period razvoja gde se bojimo samoće jer samoća donosi pitanje ko sam ja. Šta je moja svrha, šta je moj smisao života, pa nekako to dovodi do problema, dobijemo napad anksioznosti ili dobijemo neku vrstu emocionalne praznine, nije nam okej da ostanemo sa sobom. Dok smo sa drugima mi bežimo od tih pitanja, onda kad konačno nema tih drugih što je nažalost pandemija za neke ljude dovela do toga, oni su počeli da nam komuniciraju usamljenost, depresiju i ozbiljne napade panike jer su tad prvi put došli u kontakt sa sobom. Znači nije bilo ometača, nije bilo nečega što će ih spasiti, ostali su sami sa sobom i tek tad su videli koliko i ne znaju kako da budu sami sa sobom. I da je to neko mesto koje se uči. I neki ljudi dok su sami prilično su usamljeni i onda mi shvatimo da često ti socijalni odnosi su neka vrsta kako bih to rekla – pa mreža za koju se mi hvatamo. U kojoj se održavamo da funkcionišemo a nekako pandemija je dovela do toga da shvatimo koliko duboke odnose imamo ili nemamo, što je za neke ljude bilo otrežnjujuće. Kao aha, ja za neke ljude mislim da imam, ali zapravo mi smo tu dobri za kafiće, za neko letovanje a sad kad smo trebali da budemo tu jedni za druge emocionalno, da vidimo kako smo, da se podržimo, ti odnosi zapravo su vrlo prazni. I to je neke ljude zapravo uvelo u prilično ozbiljan osećaj usamljenosti. Da shvate da odnose koje imaju su odnosi koji su površni i koji ne čine suštinu i onda su morali da prave neku vrstu promena i to ozbiljnih promena, a na svetskom nivou se dešava pandemija. I onda povećana stopa razvoda, mnogi ljudi su promenili posao, mnogi ljudi su prestali da se druže s nekim ljudima i ovo je…tako da je ovo prilično često dovela do mnogih vrsta “aha ovo se zapravo dešava u mom životu” i to jeste bolno ali na kraju krajeva bolje za nas. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Pa da, ja isto pandemiju vidim kao šansu, ali ne ono šansu u poslovnom smislu kao iskoristite, sve je opportunity, ništa nije- meni je baš pandemija šansa da se čovek suoči sa sobom. Odjednom si- bio si primoran da budeš sam, nisi mogao da pobegneš ni u rad, ni u šoping, ni u druženje, nisi imao gde da pobegneš jer si tu bio zatvoren u četiri zida. A kakve će nam- mislim sad bez veze, ne mogu da te pitam da budeš prorok i predviđaš kakva će nam biti budućnost, ali kako će pandemija da utiče na nas? Ja sam u nekoliko ovih razgovora, pogotovo sa ljudima koji su sa ovog terena ili iz našeg regiona – Makedonija, Bosna, Srbija – mi imamo to iskustvo rada. Ti si ga sama- izbeglištva. Ti si ga sama spomenula. Kako će ovo da utiče na nas. Ja mislim da smo već malo načeti, generalno, kolektivno, a kako će onda pa tek ovo da utiče na nas.

Bojana Obradović: Pa mislim da neke posledice već vidimo – to si ti lepo primetila, povećana zloupotreba lekova koja se dešava. Onda na ulicama je dosta više besa. To je ono što se primećuje, što se kaže u vazduhu. Da ljudi- jer ne mogu da ispolje to nezadovoljstvo – dešavaju se promene na poslu, dešavaju se otkazi, porodični sistemi trpe dosta neslaganja. Veća je kriza, ne možemo da se okupimo za slavu, ne možemo da imamo te utešne momente. Nema radosti, nema krštenja, nema svadbi, nema- naš narod je veseo. Mi koliko god da nosimo tugu u sebi, mi nekako umemo da se prilično dobro proveselimo i to je za nas neka vrsta oporavka i regeneracije i toga nema. Šta se onda dešava? Mi vidimo jednu vrstu kolektivnog besa, kolektivne apatije, a ovo kad se završi, tek onda će isplivavati traume. Jer kako je sve to povezano i sa našom prošlošću i sa našom budućnošću, ali će se i dešavati neke vrste bolnih spoznaja koliko je tu ovo što smo već rekli da se nekim ljudima desilo, tek tad će se desiti aha, ko stvarno nije bio tu za nas. Koliko su nas poslodavci povredili, koliko su izneverili naša očekivanja. Na primer da li su nam davali tu pomoć od države ili nisu. Tu su priče koje se onako ispod pokrivača, tepiha već sada naziru. Koliko žena je ostalo bez posla jer su ostale trudne, šta se događalo sa otkazima, koliko ljudi je izgubilo- na primer, drastična smanjenja plate. Krediti. I to su neke stvari koje će krenuti da se dešavaju na kolektivnom nivou. A da ne pričamo o jednom opet moram da pomenem to ali je važno – gubitak poverenja u sistem. Znači rađeno je istraživanje na Filozofskom fakultetu gde se pokazuje da naši građani su ozbiljno izgubili poverenje i u struku lekara i u struku epidemiologa i u našu državu. Sad vi i ako godinu dana nemate poverenja u neke sisteme koji su krucijalni za održavanje, onda je pitanje šta će se desiti u budućnosti sa našim zdravstvenim sistemom? Šta će se desiti sutra kad dođe nauka, a ljudi ne veruju više nauci. Da ne pričam o teoriji zavere, mi smo Srbi uvek bili skloni teorijama zavere. Sad smo otišli do krajnosti. I mene to prilično brine. Evo jutros sam slušala radio – retkost. Ali zahvaljujući- pošto nemam TV, zahvaljujući tom radiju sam shvatila da naša država nudi pomoć od 3000 ko se vakciniše. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Jaoj, za to ne znam. Evo sad čujem od tebe, užas. 

Bojana Obradović: Da, da, građani koji se budu vakcinisali za prvu tu vakcinu će dobiti 3000. I to je nešto što govori o našem mentalitetu. Ja se sad razmišljam da neki ljudi koji su možda i imali neke stavove će za novac otići. To vam govori o tome šta se dešava kad mi možemo tvoj stav da promenimo za 3000 dinara. Tvoj stav o medicini, tvoj stav o nečemu što si ti mislio da imaš. I to poljuljava generacije i generacije koje će dolaziti jer mi shvatamo da onda- u šta mi verujemo, na primer? Znači ranije naš narod je verovao u religiju, onda u jednom momentu su malo počeli da veruju u nauku. Mi posle pandemije mislim da treba da se uradi jedno ozbiljno istraživanje je pitanje da li ćemo uopšte imati u nešto- osim malog broja ljudi- možemo da imamo poverenje i zašto treba da imamo poverenje. I to je nešto što će da poljulja te naše osnove i onda je pitanje šta će se dogoditi. Koliko ljudi će odlaziti ili neće. Ako ljudi odlaze to je opet utiče na one koji ostaju, tako da ja mislim da će ovo prilično emotivno da utiče na sve nas i najveći deo izazova će biti kome sada verovati, kako i sebi verovati posle svega ovoga? Prvo što ne verujemo sistemima, ne verujemo ni prirodi – ne znamo koliko može da nas iznenadi i da nas onako lako odnese i nekako ona ima i neki svoj prirodni tok, to smo zaboravili. Oduvek je bilo tako ali smo mi nekako malo zaboravili pa se sad vratilo, ali kad shvatimo da smo izgubili neke prijatelje ili da smo doživeli neke krize, onda se javi taj doživljaj – da li ja mogu da verujem sebi da ću biti stabilan kad se ponovo nešto loše desi? Naravno da ovo treba da se integriše da smo svi doživeli jednu vrstu izazova, da pounutrimo neke stvari, da shvatimo da smo se ipak snašli. Ali mislim da nekim ljudima koji ne budu radili na sebi, koji ne budu pričali, će ovo ostati kao loše iskustvo koje će u budućnosti zapravo biti trigger da kad se nešto slično desi da se oni destabilizuju. A ako mi zapravo budemo pričali kao ovaj podkast koji ti vodiš i koji je odličan i koji nadam se da će mnogi ljudi čuti, će ljudima pomoći da zapravo opojme svoje iskustvo, da ga validiraju, intregrišu i možda izvuku iz njega lekciju.

Sanja Milosavljević: Ti si to rekla rekla nego što sam ja uopšte mogla i da smislim. E sad, pošto smo baš pred kraj, hoću da mi kažeš nešto o “Pričajmo o tome”. Meni se toliko sviđa to ime tog projekta zato što je- ja stvarno mislim da je spas u priči. Ne u pričanju priča nego ja da čujem tvoju priču, ti da čuješ moju – autentičnu priču. I tako ćemo da se naravno uz pomoć terapije, uz pomoć lekova, ali to je meni prvi neki korak da kreneš da pričaš. Znači da si makar nešto osvestio i to ti je jedan korak bliže isceljenju. Šta je to? Šta je “Pričajmo o tome”? 

Bojana Obradović: E hvala ti što si pitala. “Pričajmo o tome” je moj projekat naravno sa kolegama koji je nastao 2013. godine. i mi pomažemo studentima. Razlog zašto sam izabrala studente jeste zato što je buduća ja – to je sad ova ovde – otišla da spasi mene tada i nekako bude tu za sebe. I on se bavi studentima. Razlog što sam izabrala studente jeste što su oni ta populacija koja negde na korak do odraslog doba. To su budući zaposleni, roditelji, mladi supružnici i meni se to činilo kao odličan razvojni period da ljudi koji imaju probleme sa mentalnim zdravljem žele da rade na sebi. Da odu kod psihologa, odnosno terapeuta, da dobiju besplatnu podršku i pomoć. Jer nekako poučena i sopstvenom finansijskom situacijom i svojim okruženjem sam shvatila da ima ljudi koji žele da rade ali neće moći da priušte ni minimalnu cenu terapije a i te kako su zainteresovani za nju, će moći da dobiju podršku psihoterapeuta da se bolje upoznaju, savladaju te probleme i na neki način ih razreše. I moje iskustvo je moram reći prelepo sa obe strane. Prvo i sa nekoga ko vodi projekat moje kolege koje evo već osma godina stalno učestvuju, uvek imamo nove volontere, projekat funkcioniše zahvaljujući njima. Mislim, ja i dalje imam studente sa kojima besplatno radim, ali jedna ja svakako ništa ne bih mogla da uradim i da to opstane. Tako da projekat je jedan koji mislim da je od posebnog značaja za našu psihološku zajednicu Srbije jer je to priča o ljudima koji rade volonterski. Znači oni dolaze tu zapravo da pomažu klijentima besplatno. I to rade neki od njih godinama, neki na neko određeno vreme. I studenti se javljaju, rade na sebi i polako razbijamo te predrasude. Prvi naziv je bio “Pričaj(mo) o tome”, baš iz tog razloga, hajde da progovorimo o problemima i naša prva kampanja je baš bila “Kako si”, da se priča o tome. I “Okej je da ti nije okej”, to su neke prve stvari sa kojima smo mi krenuli i mislim da je to negde krenula jedna vrsta promene na društvenom nivou gde smo počeli da pričamo otvoreno o tim stvarima i na neki način da ih razrešavamo. A kasnije je dobila i neku vrstu drugog pojma jer vi kad razrešite stvari, jelte Brene Braun se pojavila kasnije u mom životu – 2016., 17., 18., koja govori o autentičnosti. Njena istraživanja su fenomenalna i ona govori o ponovnom pričanju priče. To je kad mi zapravo opojmimo svoje iskustvo i sada ispričamo ono što si rekla traumatično iskustvo na novi način. Tako da zapravo i sam “Pričajmo o tome” se stalno razvija tako da ima neku lepu i pozitivnu konotaciju i ono što mi radimo jeste da pravimo i predavanja i radionice. Predavanja su otvorena i za građanstvo, nisu samo za studente i ja sam oduševljena – tu su ljudi svih starosnih doba. I oni dolaze, postavljaju pitanja, iznose lične priče, toliko je humora na tim predavanjima. To je potpuno jedan novi doživljaj psihoterapije za mene i meni na primer najlepše bilo predavanje 2018 – eto to baš osećam potrebu da podelim. Gde su pet mojih klijenata došlikm ispričali svoje iskustvo sa terapijom i ljudi su- prvo što sam ja bila oduševljena jer nikad nisam verovala da će klijenti hteti da pokažu, da se vide, da pričaju. Obično ljudi hoće da napišu pa da anonimno podele – okej su sa tim iskustvima, ali oni su rešili da žele ipak da ispričaju i to je nešto što je tako bilo lekovito na licu mesta. Znači videti nekoga ko priča svoju priču, ko je nosi, ko stoji tu pred ljudima, možda nekih 40-50 ljudi i to je za mene terapeuta bio onako- moram priznati, mlada sam, ali to mi je bio vrhunac karijere. Okej, možda se nešto desi ali kao terapeut sedite sa svojim klijentima i pričate o tome što se desilo. Tu su i neki drugi ljudi koji shvate da je to zapravo jedna najnormalnija stvar na svetu – ići na terapiju. Tako da, eto. Tako da “Pričajmo o tome” je jedan projekat koji postoji i postojaće nadam se. Ja planiram da ga preuzimaju na svakih 5 godina nove generacije. Ovi ljudi to je neki budući razvojni korak, ali ja bih volela da kolege osmisle i za druge grupacije slične projekte zato što svi zaslužuju da dobiju pomoć, a mi smo shvatili da ne možemo baš pomoći svima i da za neke vrste populacije ne bi bilo ni okej da rade mladi volonteri. Naši volonteri su i do skora bili studenti pa su sad na edukacijama, bliskih su godina pa je to super deo sa terapeutima i studentima koji brzo kliknu i nekako se poklapamo. Tako da se ja nadam da će biti projekata i za srednjoškolce, i za odrasle i za starije – to bi bilo onako odlično.

Sanja Milosavljević: Jao super, super mi je to. Pogotovo što treba da se vratimo unazad – od najranijeg nekog doba kada klinci mogu da budu svesni sebe i da prepoznaju, mislim da je to vreme da se krene. Znači tu kao srednja škola mi je na primer idealna, pogotovo što srednja škola je tinejdž doba pa su to malo i hormoni, pa su to malo i buntovništva. Sve se- u tom tinejdž dobu se svašta nešto dešava sa nama. Meni se jako dopada taj “Pričajmo o tome”. Kada sam prvi put videla Brene Braun ja mislim da sam ja omađijana gledala sate i sate, dok na kraju mi se smučilo i rekla sam ne mogu više. Sledeći mi je bio Gabor Mate, na primer njega sam isto tako sate i sate i ne mogu da prestanem. Gde god da sam – u kupatilu, u kolima, bez prestanka sam ih slušala. Baš sam bila omađijana sa njima dvoma. Hoćeš molim te da nam pošalješ neku poruku? Ja obično pitam- zamolim ljude da- to ne mora da bude sad poruka u smislu neka sentenca nego da bude ili da pročitamo neku dobru knjigu, pogledamo neki dobar film- ne mora- bilo šta što misliš da je važno da podeliš sa drugim ljudima. 

Bojana Obradović: Da. Pa evo, pošto si nekako rekla da je podkast priča o našem razumevanju iskustva za vreme pandemije iako smo više pričale o nekim drugim stvarima, neka moja poruka bude da je pandemija zapravo bila jedno nenormalno stanje i ako smo i doživeli neke nenormalne reakcije one su normalne u nenormalnim situacijama. Tako ako ste malo bili čudnovati sami sebi u proteklih godinu dana i ako budete još malo čudnovati, shvatite da je to deo nekih normalnih stvari jer nam se dešava nešto za šta nismo bili pripremljeni, za šta nisu postojala nikakva uputstva, priručnici, svi smo se nekako snašli u nečem potpuno novom. Tako da ako vam se to i dogodilo, važno je da prihvatite sebe i dozvolite sebi da budete kakva god da ste verzija. I to će proći i da nekako kasnije dozvolite da se osvrnete i da vidite okej šta ću sad sa ovim, koje snage treba da ojačam? Možda negde nisam okej, šta bih voleo da poboljšam da poboljšam, da li su neke od stvari koje su mi se dogodile za vreme pandemije probudile duhove prošlosti? Triggere? Možda mogu da odem kod terapeuta da malo pričam o tome da se bolje razumem. Tako da mislim da je ovo bila – i još uvek je nažalost – priča o svima nama da mi shvatimo gde smo, gde je planeta zemlja, gde smo jedni sa drugima, kako da se razumevamo i na neki način da se bolje upoznamo i više prihvatimo sebe i ako vam ovo baš ne bude povod da krenete na terapiju, možda ideja da je život jedan – to bih nekako rekla. A ko ode na terapiju definitvno će upoznati sebe daleko bolje. I onda nekako kad bude bio kraj naših života, kad se osvrnemo moćićemo onako sebi slatko da namignemo i da kažemo da smo odradili dobar posao. I nekako ja mislim da je taj deo na terapiji fantastičan gde vi koliko god to bilo bolno, koliko god spoznali neke svoje mane vidite koliko ste jedinstveni, naučite kako da budete autentični kroz život, stvarno spoznate svoje neke vrednosti i veštine pa čak i potencijale za koje niste imali pojma da ih zapravo posedujete. I nekako se samoaktualizujete, vi ostvarite svoj puni potencijal i onda šta god da se desi nije problem. Znači nije važno da li je život kratak ili dug, vi ste nekako sa sobom na ti, prilično se volite i razumete, prihvatate sva ta životna  iskustva koja su i dobra i loša kako koja dolaze i nekako ga odživite punim plućima. I zato ja kažem terapija vam pomaže da život bude življenje a ne životarenje. Tako da bih ja uvek otišla na terapiju da živim.

Sanja Milosavljević: Da živim, da. Pa hvala ti – ja bih sad mogla sa tobom u nastavcima. Kao šta radiš sledeće nedelje. Pošto stvarno lepo si rekla mi smo se- nismo ni zagrebale temu pandemije nego sve ono da te pitam ovo, da te pitam ono i na kraju…vrlo malo vremena smo posvetile onome pandemiji. Dobri ljudi, slušali ste i gledali ste Mondopreneur podkast. Budite dobri, dobroga zdravlja i vidimo se za nedelju dana.