Sanja Milosavljević: Good evening, good people. My name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I am going to be your host today. Mine today’s guest is Sonja Dakic and what I have said before camera went on,she is a mother of entrepreneurship with emphasis on women entrepreneurship that develops in a certain manner in the last ten years in our local community, and that is why she is the best guest that is a best person from whom you can learn a lot just by listening carefully. She ran her own private business which she will of course mention later, from which she came out and is now engaged in one wonderful thing or business. Now, she helps other people – that doesn’t necessarily have to be a woman, but also other people who enter entrepreneurship and she is their, if I can draw a parallel with assistance on the road. How to really gather your thoughts and ideas and how to go through an entrepreneurial path with as little effort as possible, which is certainly not necessarily complicated, or there are some things you need to expand and do to grow and develop. Well, Sonja is your assistance on the way, how not to waste money and energy and resources, which of course are always limited, especially when you are starting a business. This project is supported by the US Embassy in Serbia and Belgrade. Thanks to them, the idea is to spread positive and good stories, but not positive in the sense that everything is beautiful and great, but in the sense of how to really use every moment in life, start your business, change your career, become independent and feel the freedom that entrepreneurs have. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Hi Sonja, how are you?

Sonja Dakić: Hello, and thank you for inviting me and the opportunity to share good stories. I am good and I chatted with my husband about how grateful I am that I had a chance to get out of the house and do some hair and makeup. I do go out, due to my business but I missed it and thank you for this opportunity.

Sanja Milosavljević: Thank you for the time, I know it is a resource that we miss and I do respect your everyday duties. You are also a mother and you have a need for, an obligation – you have a need to be with your kids, so thank you for accepting my invitation. Tell us, what is your educational background and how it is connected to what you do at the moment?

Sonja Dakić: Well, I like to say that all our knowledge and experiences are gathered during life. I am a graphic designer by education. I think that my official diploma is “packaging design technician”, and at school we were called “tetrapackus”, which is not exactly a title. But what serves me today is that I know how to pack things nicely, not only as a gift but to make everything I do visually receptive to people. Which can sometimes be a good thing, sometimes a bad thing, in the sense that I give too many details to some things, but in my work I see that people pay attention to that. I did various jobs from secretary, courier, office manager to graphic designer and press preparation, for 10 years in various small companies and all that led me to improve in that world. What’s interesting – I never thought I would have my company. I always thought that I was a good worker in someone else’s company. I just changed jobs, environments, had the opportunity to work with great people and learn from them, and that guided me. When I looked at one point because I have been working independently for the last 10 years, when I looked at my first career, that need to learn guided me, led me to change jobs and environments, but it is something that still serves me today. Today, I do not design for others, except for friends when they need it, but more for my promotional materials and that is something I know and I still like and am interested in.  

Sanja Milosavljević: That is it, yes. I ask you this, because we usually think that some formal education is needed – that you are an economist or a lawyer or that you have completed some organizational sciences, so you – because there are faculties and courses where you learn what a company is, how to run a company, what it looks like the structure of the company, and we actually realize that we may not have to have that kind of formal education, but that we can learn and improve along the way. So, I may be more fortunate, less fortunate, we may find good mentors or consultants who can help us. That is why I ask you that, because in our country it is either trivialized that everyone can be an entrepreneur and everyone should try, and then we falsely encourage people that it is for everyone. Which may not be … it’s okay for me to say that one really wants to be a worker and they don’t want to have stress out, obligations, to think three steps ahead, to communicate with different people, I want to do my thing and come home to me it’s also okay.

Sonja Dakić: Yes, there is a thing I like to say – sorry to interrupt, but there are just some ideas and initiatives that require larger systems. Where you need to be within a larger company or something where it can be brought out. Not every idea is for entrepreneurship and I know many people who have worked in large systems or are still working who have managed to go through some projects just because they “turned the wheel the other way”. They were innovative, they brought something into the environment – whether it was a bank, whether it was some other big company, but they needed that big system for that. There is a reason there are big and small ships. A small ship can turn around and respond more easily, but large ones are also needed to be able to do something big with them. So I think that no matter how it changes in the future, I think we should always have both and it’s okay for people to try something and say okay, but I want to be part of a team, I work better there, I am appreciated, I’m more motivated and that’s okay. So I agree with you that people should be aware that entrepreneurship is not easy and it is not for everyone, but it is a beautiful adventure that – as I say, it is the craziest adventure that someone can pay for. First of all, because of that personal development. Just like if you asked me what my most important roles were, they were parenting and entrepreneurship. I think that these are two fields where you really challenge yourself the most to grow and where you doubt yourself the most and face yourself the most and with what you thought you were and what is really happening. So it’s something where people need to recognize whether they want to get into that game or not. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Tell me, what do you think about entrepreneurship in Serbia? What does it look like to you? You are an experienced entrepreneur, you were a cofounder of DajDaj company. How does it look like entrepreneurship in Serbia to you?  

Sonja Dakić: Cofounder.

Sanja Milosavljević: At some point it was a new and innovative product, diapers and accessories… At that point in time it was something completely new and you had a certificate for eco

Sonja Dakić: Yes, different bamboo program.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, bamboo products.  

Sonja Dakić: Eco stamp, yes.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, so you have experience as an entrepreneur, so tell us, what do you think about entrepreneurship in our country.

Sonja Dakić: A lot has happened in the last 10 years. We started, the two of us, sometime in 2010, and I had exactly the idea you just mentioned – I don’t have a college degree in it, nor did I have anyone in my family – my mom and dad lived that classic story, one job from school to retirement . So I didn’t even have someone in my environment who was my role model and I was really in the mood for that. However, from the idea that I had when I was on maternity leave at that moment and I had time, I went into that adventure more, let’s see what can be done there, than with a clear plan, I am not going to turn it into a business. Without any practical knowledge – aware that I don’t have knowledge, but am open to learning. And a lot has happened in terms of, in those 10 years, in terms of support programs, in terms of the ecosystem that has evolved, in terms of the hubs we have that we didn’t have before. Now well, because of the whole Covid situation, the whole last year was specific, so we didn’t have that many programs and workshops. Some of it was online. But today there really is a lot, and from state institutions that are operational for someone, to private initiatives, organizations … so we have an ecosystem that is trying to get it back on its feet and I think that’s great. Also, the development of social networks has brought great opportunities in that area. Today, based on an Instagram profile, you can start and test something and see if it makes sense, doesn’t make sense or change it in a couple of months, and simply put- 

Sanja Milosavljević: Sorry, this is very important – for some small amount of money, you don’t need an army standing behind you.  

Sonja Dakić: That’s right. It is simply something where you can get in direct contact with the customer and where you are relatively comfortable to check if something works or not and then adjust it. So a lot has happened in the last 10 years that I think we are not often aware of and in my opinion the situation is very good today. There are a lot of support programs, a lot of people involved in education, a lot of good examples that people can follow in entrepreneurship. It is always interesting to me when I meet people who have recently been there who say they are great entrepreneurs – they want to share knowledge, they want to share experiences. And that’s really, my experience is that it’s an ecosystem of some special people where you exchange, help each other, you know we’ve been a thousand times – everyone wants to do what they can and it’s nice to be a part of that story. So I’m glad – of course it can always be better. But when I look at what happened 10 years ago, I think some things have really moved on and created an opportunity for many people to get into entrepreneurship and see if they fit into it. Now you can figure out in a couple of months whether it is for you or not, whether you like it or some other framework is better for you. 

 Sanja Milosavljević: I agree. So, when you say there are a lot of help programs that come from the state, but is that enough? 

Sonja Dakić: I always like to say that we can do better, but there are – in recent years some banks finally recognized and lend money to beginners in business. Previously, one of the requirements was that you have to be established as a certain type of company to apply for the loan, so people used to get loans as physical entities to credit their business, which was quite usual. This has changed. More people need to make a pressure for a change to happen. There are various funds – I’ve just checked one, Development Agency of Serbia-

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, there is new-

Sonja Dakić: New call for applications have come out. So there is that. Of course, these are always conditions that someone can meet, someone can’t, but as I know, I also participated in their programs with some banks, they now recognize that a company doesn’t have to be founded for two years, that it doesn’t have to – so they make certain concessions, they don’t have to give a mortgage and they still support those beginners with some mentoring support and some financial means. Although I always say when someone comes up with an idea and asks where I can find support for it, I always say what you really are – what you have invested and what you are willing to invest in your idea to be somewhere else – so if you start with the idea “I’ll start a business if I get support”, then that’s not a good motivation. The point is to see what it really stands for, where that idea really comes from, so that motivation and that support will come later. In my opinion, this is the right path. And like this, and it’s kind of an exam for each of us, to see how much we care about that idea actually.

Sanja Milosavljević: And tell me, since, first, it was the year of entrepreneurship, so now I think it’s a decade of entrepreneurship. That means we expanded a bit – yes, a little bit – and I think it’s great. We have to work on it, we have to raise awareness about the importance of entrepreneurship, encouraging people and so on. And now what you just said, that’s very interesting to me – if I don’t get the money, I am not going to … do you think that’s it – you have experience as a consultant – is that one hundred percent true? So, if I don’t have anything to invest, it means that maybe I really don’t care about that idea, or I’m not ready to put up with it for a year or two until it develops, or maybe it’s that part of that false lull that we should all try. apply with some idea, and if he/she doesn’t get the money they won’t continue with the idea. Because I know, from experience that some people are too scared and not ready – they do not understand the risk, they do not understand the logic of risk and therefore do not invest their money and then expect money from someone – from a bank or fund. 

Sonja Dakić: But that’s the point. If you don’t believe in your idea, to invest money, how will you convince someone else. That is my question. How ready you are to stand behind that idea. It doesn’t always have to be money, it can be time. You said that very well – am I ready to invest my time for a year or two, to separate myself from some other projects, to save myself, not to go on a summer vacation, not to buy a newer car. So some businesses really don’t need a lot of money. Another thing, unfortunately, I have seen a lot of times that people get money and do not know what to do with it. So money is not a guarantee. And that was just one good research. I think Forbes in 2019 did it on 300 startups. Now the startup is specific, but I think the methodology of those first few years of development is the same. They wanted to see why startups fail in such a large percentage and try to find the 10 most common causes. It turns out that of these top 10 causes were related exclusively to customers, to the market, that is. And money appeared in 9th or 10th place. Before that, there were people themselves, that is, a team that works, but the first five reasons were that the market did not need it, that they did not listen to feedback from users on how to improve the service, product, distribution, irrelevant. So a lot of money is not a guarantee of success. Just like when people come to me and say “I want to make a clear plan”. Okay, there is no golden plan of success that I will give you where I say do this and that and I guarantee you success. No, so there are some steps on how it should go, there are a lot of tools on how we can set it up, but in the end we always come back to what someone will do with it. You and I can follow exactly the same plan, but because of your and my starting position – all the knowledge and experience we bring into the story, our results may be completely different. Because we will approach other people, one will be more open and the other more closed – it’s all part of the puzzle that will eventually make a result and that’s what people need to be aware of. So, money is not a guarantee, it is just a means by which you will get to something faster. I remember when we set up the first web site for Daj-Daj, at that time there were several sites for cloth diapers in Croatia. And since it’s the same language, when you search for cloth diapers, they came out first because they worked for several years. I was on the third page of Google. I was like, no one ever goes there. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Never went to the second page, nor the third…

Sonja Dakić: Detailed oriented, like myself go to the second page, and the third one is for those who are desperate. So I have asked my developer, okay, what can we do? He said that there are two ways – we can invest time and we can invest the money. I told him I don’t have money for commercials. So he said, sit down and write and you will see in 6 months you will be on the first place. So I said, okay, I don’t have money, I will sit and write. I am investing this, this is the currency I have. And in six months, we were in the first three resultus and we never left that position. But that’s it, we work with the currency we have. And people should be aware of the fact that there is no golden guarantee, applicable to everything.

Sanja Milosavljević: Like, I have a magic wand and everything would be okay. Tell me, what is a mentorship for you and what is consulting? Where do they meet and what are the differences? Or you don’t think they are different? 

Sonja Dakić: Well, yes, there are a lot of these concepts that are mixed and intertwined today, and I think that’s a problem because they are supposed to complement each other somehow. I can tell you my own angle. When someone calls me a consultant, I am not at peace with it because I somehow expect it to be someone older, more experienced. You know, to me when someone says consultant, to me it’s some very big authority, that’s my perception. Recently, some people called me an “expert” at some lecture, I was like oh, God! “ 

Sanja Milosavljević: Call me whatever you want, but don’t call me an expert. 

Sonja Dakić: It’s like when Slavimir got the award for lifetime work. It is like, no, wait, it’s too early. 

Sanja Milosavljević: It’s not my time yet!

Sonja Dakić: I’m not there yet. So consulting, as I perceive it, is more about taking a person who is an expert in something. Now it can be a technologist, someone related to finance – for a narrow field where you expect to get specific guidelines and advice and to have a project that I want to work on. So let’s say I want to develop a new product and I need to sort it out, I’m going to call someone. In my opinion, a consultant should have both personal experience and knowledge. I love that symbiosis. I think that what I am – when you made an introduction on the topic of faculties and everything – even the faculties where something about entrepreneurship is taught, I think that the big drawback is that it is not taught by someone who has experience in entrepreneurship, but students learn from some books that they are simple, let me say – we have greatly surpassed them. And I am glad that at least at some faculties, people who really have experience, succeed in something are coming out and sharing something solid. So to me, a consultant is someone who has that prism of personal experience, huge knowledge – I see him as someone who has at least 20 years of experience in a field so that I can trust that I need a person for that one thing and I will hire him for that. And the interesting thing about mentoring is that the mentor can be younger than you. I really see mentoring as a two-way street, it is a relationship from which both sides can grow, to learn. I also think that it is important for a person to have personal experience and knowledge, but more as a guide. What you said, as a roadside assistance. A little yellow vehicle with a rotation coming. For me, mentoring is a combination of those guidelines, advice, motivation and support. It was important for me to see when I work with some people, especially women who enter entrepreneurship on their own and do not have the support and understanding of their immediate environment, and then these are special challenges. Especially if she does it to empower herself economically, to make a life that is important to herself, if she is a single mother. So these are special life challenges. And then when you don’t have that basic support it’s very hard to stick to that idea, no matter how important it was to get to that first pit stop. And then it was important to me when I asked, for example, what was most useful to them in our work, what was important to them, when they told me that I believed in their idea. So I was the +1 that was important. So mentoring sometimes doesn’t have to be any special expertise of knowledge, it’s enough to be there for someone to ask a question, support him, to refer him to someone – it’s quite ok to ask me something and I say listen, Sanja, I don’t know but I know someone who knows and I think it will help you and I will connect you with that person. Well that’s it. In my opinion, a mentor is someone who has contacts, who is well positioned, who has great experience, I learn something from every business and individual I work with. And I try to memorize them as much as I can so that I can connect them tomorrow with someone else. Yes, I can make those dots like in a child’s drawing, because I think that’s important. Some people opened some doors for me and gave some questions, some sentences and advice that helped me develop further. People make mistakes when they go to a mentor to give them some answers. I can only say my opinion, experience or the experience of my clients I have worked with to help you gain a broader picture of the situation so that you can make an important decision or change based on it. So mentoring is for me – and I’m glad it’s coming in – I can’t say it’s coming into fashion, but it’s coming to life here. Because it is a philosophy of exchange, solidarity, support. That tomorrow I can take a mentor who is 25 years old and knows Instagram better than me. I’ll be like, brother, show me – why doesn’t this work for me? You know, I can’t watch YouTube tutorials anymore, shorten this for me. I don’t have to be good at everything, and for some it may be a joy in work. And then, that exchange is actually where we try to make everyone do what they are best at and to exchange, and that’s a nice mix to me. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Nice mix, yes. When you mentioned it, I remember when I opened that business account on Instagram, I called my friend’s 18-year-old daughter and said here’s Andjelia create me an account, show me what to click, what to do, who to follow, how is it done, where am I going? Of course, she did it for me, arranged it, set it to me, anf told me, Sanja, you have to follow people who are from the food industry. You see that’s wise. But that’s it. She knows and she finished it in five minutes, and it would be a struggle… 

Sonja Dakić: Months, weeks.

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, yes, I will struggle, mostly. I would really like to talk about what you work on now, the program you have created and that starts really soon, and from my point of view it is a combination of mentoring and consulting, and it is not one or another, it is mostly about how to run a company.

Sonja Dakić: Yes. Well, yes, it was interesting to me. By the way, I have completed two trainings in coaching and it is the most difficult of all for me. Because coaching is based on asking questions where you are not allowed to give any suggestions. And then I die when I get into that situation because that’s the point, let’s say, now that we’ve started that topic, in coaching it’s a matter of bringing a client to see for himself, that’s why it’s so powerful. Because then you look for resources within yourself and the skill of asking questions opens up the options. One of the reasons I exited from DajDaj is on the one hand for private reasons and on the other because I realized that my experience and the education I went through can serve someone else. In 2015, Erste Bank called me for the first time to participate in the mentoring program, and I was in the like, how can I be a mentor, I don’t have a school for that, I don’t have a certificate, and they told me no, we really need someone from the field. I remember Vasi telling me that. I was like, okay. Then, I was in a great team where I was like, I can’t believe what’s going on. And then during one day I had the opportunity to talk to over 40 young people who came up with some amazing ideas. And after that day, I realized, what I know and what I can do, and that somehow each of us has somebody who knows more and who knows less at a certain point of life. Mentoring is that you learn from those who know more, that process never stops, but also that you pass that knowledge on. And my desire to do what I do today stemmed from the fact that being myself helped others make that journey easier, faster, more fun, in better company. And from my experience in the various mentoring programs I have been in, I have wanted to do something that is mine. The first two groups were organized live in 2018, in collaboration with the ICT hub and it was great because these are live workshops where I mostly work with women and with women who usually go alone or with a sister, friend, sometimes husband, brother, so sometimes a man passes by. But mostly you step out of an environment that has nothing to do with entrepreneurship and it means a lot to them that they are not alone, that the challenges they are going through they are not alone, that they are not the only ones making certain mistakes and that you understand that there is one set of mistakes.

Sanja Milosavljević: And that is perfectly normal and okay.

Sonja Dakić: Now, someone can save yours, as you said nicely, money and time, so you can skip some of that. So I saw the potential there even before the Covid happened because I had women who were from Subotica, Sombor, outside Belgrade, so I wanted to transfer it to the online format. And that turned out to be a great idea in line with current events, but it opened up the possibility for me to create one structure and then I realized that I wanted that program to last. Yes, I want to give and I have experience with mentoring programs that last for a year and you know how much it seems like a lot, like, for a year! But when you go from one month to another month, how much does it mean to you to return among some people, to exchange with them and how much those connections remain after. That’s it now, I get chills when I think of things like that. These are friendships that arise and never end. When you meet after three years and you are like, as if you saw each other yesterday. That’s what I wanted to create and I succeeded somehow because everyone who goes through my program can come back again. I made it last 9 months, it is a natural cycle of change, birth, new life. It lasts from March to November, again you follow the natural cycle of spring to autumn, where each month has its own theme that gave me space to include everything that is entrepreneurial skills and personal development. Because one does not go without the other. And to intertwine it through fine work consisting of lessons, assignments, live online meetings. Now for this group we have women who are – which is phenomenal to me – one of them – the three of them have a business together. One is in China, the other is in Hungary I think right now, the third is in Germany and we can all work together. That is what the Internet has brought, one positive side. But the idea is that in a really nice society, the challenges that entrepreneurship is, brings people together and they can go through together and overcome some things easier and faster. What is very important to me when we finally summarize the program and what was most useful to them, what their expectations were and what they got, is when I see how widely it affected their lives. When we do some of the first topics, time management and goal setting. Because the point is not for us to set some goals in business that will crush other things in life, but to set them in terms of what kind of life I want to live. Do I have a family, children, do I have hobbies that I do, other activities, how much time do I really want to spend. Sometimes those are women who already have a full-time job and want to develop something from the side. Then we see how much time they can really dedicate, so we set goals. But in general, what I like most is that at the end of the program, they realize how much their overall quality of life has improved. How much they have learned to look at some things differently, to understand what is important to them and therefore make decisions, to filter things, not to get upset about stupidity anymore. I also included that as parts of NLP, communication, online marketing, everything that is important, it is a mix, but it is one package – as first aid for entrepreneurs. This is your first aid, and I’ll tell you where to look, but you should know this. This is the capsule you carry with you. 

Sanja Milosavljević: You said it nicely. It a first aid kit. What are the most common points of problem? I do not expect you to generalize, but you have some experience – where do entrepreneurs stumble most often? I know where I stumble the most and where I will stumble forever. It is when I cannot let some things go. But where do they stumble the most, regardless of men or women, what is stopping them the most?  

Sonja Dakić: That is the field of personal development. We are the biggest hurdle to ourselves and I had the opportunity last year to hold an education at the Business Academy at the NLP Institute and Steven Twohig was one of the coaches working on Tony Robbins team. And then it was very interesting for me to talk to him during breaks and I just did a little interview with him because he has a huge experience. He has worked with tens of thousands of businesses. So, he sells Tony Robbins’ business training, which costs from 10 thousand dollars upwards. So these are businesses that spin millions. And then I asked him when you should single out one thing that would be most important to an entrepreneur what it would be. And he said those are actually two things – the ability to get out of our business. Because when you are operational every day – you know what it looks like. Emails, telephones, procurement, especially when it comes to production. I’m missing this, I have to get this, you have a thousand small fires on a daily basis. And what is important then – that you can from time to time independently or with someone’s help to get out of that picture and see yourself. What is what I have to do, what is something that someone else can do, let’s look at those things. And the other thing is the ability to push the boundaries of ourselves as much as we can. How ready we are to raise a ladder that we set for ourselves, and that is the psychological game we are playing. We set ourselves a frame. I remember when DajDaj first issued a million dinars in an invoice. I was like- I mean, I issued that invoice, I knew that money would come, but when that money comes from the bank, you are like … you know, today a million dinars is something to me – now I see it as a means for buying something, then it was as big as a house for me. Then when you start spending that money then you realize that it is being spent like everything else. There is no difference, just more – you spend more. But those are your limits, to say yes, now my business will earn a million dinars and then go earn them. So you say what it would be like to earn five, so what do you need for five. And then you keep raising that ladder for yourself. So if we talk about the skills we lack that we might have needed to learn in school, in formal education. I would say goal setting for that. That’s what – apart from people who played sports, so they have this habit of going to a competition, and it’s clear to me that I have to fall and get up a few times to achieve a result, that’s something that entrepreneurs need. It means setting goals and finances. That is on the level – my younger son is now finishing the third grade, I say this is literally the level of mathematics for the second or third grade. So addition subtraction division. 

Sanja Milosavljević: And equals.

Sonja Dakić: And equals. You know. But they are, it is literally basic – we don’t have – it doesn’t matter whether we are talking about business or not, whether we are talking about our private finances. We do not have the habit of monitoring and planning finances. We have this attitude that we just don’t have enough money. Especially my generation lived their the young years during the 90s when economics was an interesting game. And then you used to manage, that there was never any money, and we implement those beliefs and habits that we took from there, today in our lives, and I tell people that how you manage money privately, so you will do the same in business. So I can’t split that identity and be a super organized woman, and here is total chaos, I have to find a way how it will work for me. What I would apply is setting goals and steps on that path, to have a vision of where you want to go because we are often like, you can’t plan anything in Serbia, I can’t imagine my life in five years. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t think in my microcosm about what I would like. How I would like my life to look like, what I want to dedicate myself to, what I want to develop inside and out and to view finances as some fine mathematics, to have no resistance to it, to find a way that works. I always say when I hold some workshops or on the topic of finance in general, if I managed to find a way to follow it with a high school diploma in design, with two years of mathematics in high school. And I had to use it when my business actually made money. When there is no money, there is no problem – you have nothing to dispose of. When the money comes, then you need to figure out what to do with it so that it can really work. I think that on a basic level, everyone can master it. I just have to overcome that first resistance, I can’t, I can’t, it’s not for me. And a lot of women have that. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, that’s true, you said it nicely. Such is our culture, when you say that you will open a private business, everyone is desperate, and you don’t know what is worse than that. It would be easier for you to say that you are leaving the country than opening your own company. 

Sonja Dakić: That would be a success!

Sanja Milosavljević: Yeah, like you accomplished something there. And I’m glad you mentioned that we have a problem setting goals. I really think we live in unpredictable times in general. Last year was such a slap in the face and it really showed us that we can’t plan anything. But that is not true. I mean, you make a plan and then things happen on the way. You adjust and change them a little bit, but you have one plan and it’s you – you go for it. It could happen that I now go out and break my leg. 

Sonja Dakić: And you will adjust.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, I will wear a cast, my leg will heal, I will continue living. So there’s a lot in how we’re set and it’s not just the 90s we grew up in but the culture before that. And those nineties followed something else, and they were chaotic themselves. What is most important to you? For example, you said goals, finances, but when you work with women, what is the greatest pleasure? 

Sonja Dakić: When I see that through their businesses, they can make the life they want. That they can make the balance they want. Especially that eternal challenge for women between families – it doesn’t matter if they have children or not. Some only have a partner, some have a kitten or a dog, but we fall under the fact that something has to be sacrificed for the sake of something. And I kind of really have a definition that I found that I liked – the balance is to be where I am most needed and that can vary from day to day. When the Corona happened I was in the middle of a public call for my mentoring program and I was like, okay, what now. But okay, it’s going online now and it doesn’t matter. If there are two women I will go, I want to do it. That was my big goal for the last year and it was important to me and it turned out to be a great option in the end. But all of a sudden we found it as if the four of us were home and we all had some Zooms and meetings and we paid double the internet to make it work. So for me, the most important thing is for each of us to reconsider – and that is the question I often ask when I work with people – what is really possible for me. Because I realized for myself that I was setting myself some limits of average life that no one imposed on me. But as expected. Like, based on where I come from, what I know, what I finished, what my mom and dad did, my life will look like that. Put all the factors together and this is the puzzle you got. The point is to realize that we can change that, and entrepreneurship has taught me to break that frame from time to time. And that somehow the things that I was afraid of and that I was running away from, over time I started to love and appreciate them because I realized that I was growing out of them. You know, we don’t grow out of good experiences, we grow out of those challenges that are difficult and that tear us apart and reassemble us, that’s what makes us and that entrepreneurship is just a training ground for me to overcome personal boundaries and explore personal potential. To be. I don’t even go into whether I want to live nine lives as a cat – I have this now. Let me see what I can do about it. That’s why my program is called Live, Work, Love. Like my some trip of those most important things to really be something that is in tune with me. It is very important to me that the business I run makes sense to me. I had job offers that were financially viable when I came out of DajDaj, I never considered them. Because for me they were a compression. And that’s a measure of when I need to make a decision whether it’s something I feel I can grow from expanding me at that point or I feel like I’m going to have to fit into something. Somehow at the age of 40 when I made a cut, I was like not fitting in anywhere anymore. I mean, not that I don’t fit in, but I don’t want to squeeze. It took me 40 years to get there, I would like younger women to get there sooner. At least speed it up for them if nothing else. That there are 20-25 of them who are more open, more aware, braver. Which makes me happy.  

Sanja Milosavljević:  It’s the same with me, I love these new generations. Especially as they are so open to tech and new technologies, they have different mindset, they have their own – they are good kids, good people, different than we are. They think in a different manner. They have different logic appropriate to the time they grew up and gained different experiences. I am usually excited. Tell me what social entrepreneurship means to you? It is quite topical in our country nowadays. There are some misunderstanding when it comes to terminology, regarding-

Sonja Dakić: And bad translations. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, so what is social entrepreneurship as an idea for you, and then can you explain what social entrepreneurship really is?

Sonja Dakić: My first impression is love. It is business with a soul, as some would say. It was nice to me, and I will return to 2010. I told my friend Ivana, who still works in the Center for Environmental Improvement, I told her what we do, what our idea is, our product, what group of women we hire, and she looked at me and told me that we run a social enterprise. And I was like, what is that, and she sent me an email about a training that British Council is organizing regarding this topic, and a lecturer from Great Britain is coming to speak about her experiences, and I said, I am attending this. That was my first education on entrepreneurship and it blew me away. Lecturer was a student of Summerhill school. I looked at him as if he was a God. He came, and it was like, when someone – you live in a house and someone comes after 15 years and shows you the room full of books, that you didn’t know even existed. He was like that to me, he just opened a door to a whole new library and became familiar with this term. I met some people like Jovana Ruzicic who runs Center for Mums, and she is a good friend of mine. I met Dragana Tomic who runs Rural Hub. Midrag from Caritas Sabac, people from Smart kolektiv. They were pioneers, my friends from school and I still work with them and we hang out. That is the beginning of that idea. So, when someone tells me it is a new idea, I tell them that we have been talking about that for 10 years now. The problem came with bad translation, first, social entrepreneurship is connected to bad living conditions. There is a doubt whether it is social entrepreneurship or socially responsible entrepreneurship, so we lost the sense of meaning of the term in that translation. But they are businesses and they should be businesses. Situation with us is that more non-governmental organizations identify as a social enterprise than businesses and that is their problem, and that is a business with a purpose.

Sanja Milosavljević: Sorry to interrupt, but I have spoken to Ezter from Hungary, and they have the same problem. You cannot make a distinction between NGO and social enterprise or what status you have. Their government attitude towards them and the work, like they are always on a seesaw, one can never find its seat, its place.

Sonja Dakić: Well, that’s true. There are no regulations. During 2015 and 2016 I was part of some working groups for that. And then I have realised that I am not a person to sit in those groups, there are some people smarter than me and I will do some other things. That law is still waiting on some shelf, untranslated, and I am like, you don’t need a law, you have to do what you have to do. But social business is a business that needs to be sustainable, independent and to have a positive social effect. Whether it is through an employment model, through a group of users that is turn to, whether through product or service, there are several models to achieve it. In Britain, let’s say, they have restaurants that give part of the income to a foundation that is important to them, and that is the social component. It is social responsibility in our system and you have a great company that gives part of their budget for social responsibility purposes. In our country, social enterprises are mostly NGOs that start from personal initiative in order to solve a problem recognised in the society, environment, city and then it starts to spread. We have a lot of businesses that work in such a manner, and I think they are not visible enough and I think it goes from the fact that we, as buyers – to generalise, we still don’t have a sense of what it really means.

Sanja Milosavljević: What is the value of that…

Sonja Dakić: That is right. So as the value of expert work is not valued in our country. We still, and I think it is the consequence of the 90s, I always return to them as I think they had good and bad sides. In one hand, we were denied for some things and that was good, it preserved us, and on the other hand it straiten us, so we like to spend more than we have just to buy a nice clothes. We like to go to a shopping mall to buy something without thinking what is behind it. We can talk about fast and slow fashion… It is all – the point is that we have to become aware of our decisions and what will happen next. We are the people that once we throw our garbage, we stop thinking about it. It is not our problem anymore, I threw it away. These are the things where changes need to start, and then the environment and various other opportunities will appear. And this is an opportunity to have more companies to choose from because we know that they employ a vulnerable group that – you have phenomenal businesses that in some very poor parts of Serbia provide women who were once victims of violence, single mothers, who provide them with jobs and then it is truly divine to buy their product and know that product means life to someone tomorrow. And that she will buy a snack for a child and that she will buy something for someone – that is life’s things and social entrepreneurship. That is why, when we come to this topic, it is very important to me that people understand that the small decisions we make on a daily basis make a difference. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Well, ofcourse. Every day, when we wake up and choose to step from a bed on our right foot we make a decision. So, that’s it. I think that model of social enterprises and social entrepreneurship, it looks to me, kinda utopic, but it sounds like a model for the future.

Sonja Dakić: Absolutely. And every business can be a social enterprise. 

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, because literally whatever – whatever you do, product or service it doesn’t matter. It is important to whom it is intended, the way it is produced, who produced it, who eats it. So social entrepreneurship is so complex that I think it is the right model for the future. 

Sonja Dakić: I think that we are going in that direction, it just takes time. To be aware of our decisions, what matters to us, and sometimes I think that we are too slow. 

Sanja Milosavljević: It seems to me, too. I listen to you, you are so wonderful, so enlightened and you work on yourself so it is normal for you to say such things. And now we’re going to go outside and meet those people who just threw the worst plastic bag into the container. 

Sonja Dakić: But I’m not giving up. You know, I kind of think- I’m just the only one in my building, in my street, throwing out that green recycling bag. I ordered my whole family to collect corks. That went so far that my mother, who has a family in Sarajevo, traveled to them for 2-3 weeks and brought corks from them because they don’t have such an action in Bosnia. I brought corks from Greece from the seaside and I was like, my God, I’m crazy, but that’s what I tell people – every bottle counts. Every plug. We constantly think no matter what I am, but no – you can’t, that’s not the right way to think. The point is I count, so someone else will see. The point is to explain to people why you make those choices, why you have a bag in each hand bag you carry. I have 20 of them and I stuffed them in each hand bag because I don’t remember carrying them around. And I just found a way to have five reusable bags in my car for that. Because it’s important to me. Then when you go to the store without a bag and they ask me if you want a bag, I say I will take everything in my pockets and I will carry my goods in my teeth. But it’s free – it’s not free. 

Sanja Milosavljević: No, nothing is for free. In situations when I forget to bring a bag, I tell them to give me a box. So I say to them, give me a box and I might use it for something else, so there is a solution. Sonja, thanks a lot. We came to an end.

Sonja Dakić: It is over.

Sanja Milosavljević: Yes, it is. As Ivan would say, we can make sequels of conversation, every week, to talk about some topics. Thank you for your time, for everything you have said and shared with us. Good people of the world, this was Sonja Dakic. You can follow her on social media channels. Sonja Dakic-Zivi Radi Voli. You can follow us on social media like Facebboj and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel, just type #mondopreneur. Stay good and in good health and see you in a week.

Sonja Dakić: Ciao!