Sanja Milosavljević: Hi, hello, my name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I’m going to be your host today. Today is a special day because today we are doing the podcast from the studio. So, no Zoom, no headphones, we are going to speak live. And one other thing, today my guest is from Serbia. She comes from Nis, but she works and lives here in Belgrade, so we are going to speak in Serbian language, so enjoy our conversation.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Hello Ana, how are you?

Ana Brzaković: Hello Sanja, fine, thanks for asking.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you for accepting to participate in this podcast. It means a lot for me on several levels. I think that you have a lot to say. I think that your career and career path are very interesting. With focus on what you are doing now.  Can you tell us something about yourself? Just an introduction so listeners can have some sense of what you have been doing, what is your educational background, where you worked. If you wish, you can tell us where have you worked, what title did you hold and then to tell us something about your new endeavour.

Ana Brzaković: Yes, thank you for inviting me. I think that what you do is wonderful, that you bring together women with different experiences who share the story of their experience and their path – career and life. I think it is very important and very nice to share inspirational stories so that other people can see that we all can do whatever we want if we really put time and work and effort into it and that anything is possible. As for me, in short – yes, I’m from Nis. I was born and raised in Nis, I finished my second year of high school in America through an exchange program and a full scholarship funded by the US government. Then I also finished my fourth year of college in America through another exchange program that is also funded by the US government. And those were two things for me – during my studies and growing up – I can say the most important and turning points in my life. That’s why I keep talking about how I think everyone should go abroad for a while. Not a tourist but to live abroad. Whether it’s for studies, whether it’s for work, whether it’s a “work and travel program” or any other program, but to be longer than the classic week, 10-15 days as long as we go as a tourist. Because it completely changes the way of thinking, the way of observing things, and there is simply no substitute for experience. You have to go and see how much it will change your life and affect what you do and how you behave and observe things afterwards. I finished Journalism in Nis and after returning from America I worked there on a local radio station because only 3 out of 10 exams were recognized, so I had to pass these 7 later. And then I was looking for something to do and to finish that internship in my profession, which was obligatory for me, and so I found a job at a local radio station where I had a wonderful time. But then after the end, after I passed those seven exams, I wanted to study further and work, and you can develop as much as the market you belong to is developed. And considering that Nis is such a small market and that Serbia is unfortunately centralized, then I started looking for a job in Belgrade due to a combination of circumstances at that moment in time. And then I applied for jobs, went to some great interviews – I wrote a blog post about it. By the way, I like to share with other people all the experiences I go through and something that was useful to me and that I learned and understood, because maybe it will be useful to someone else. So when I found a job, I wrote about my job search experience. Instead of going to a pub to celebrate, for example, which most people go to, that was my response. Through the “Young Leaders” program, I got a job at Delta Holding and I was there for about five and a half years. I was in HR for a while, in Communications for a while, and in the end I ran the Corporate Communications Department. In parallel, at the beginning, maybe two or three years, I worked as a consultant for the American Council for International Education, since, initially I had free time outside of work and plus, it is an organization through which I went on a trial exchange so I knew people there and I wanted to help them make their appearance on social networks better and for them to talk more about what that program does and how much it means, because I knew how much it meant and helped me. I just wanted to give them back somehow, and I went to offer them to volunteer and lead that part of the job – “so you can do this, we can tell a story this way”. And they said like, but we need someone to do it globally and like in Washington DC they are now looking for a person to deal with it, let’s have a conversation with our boss in Washington DC. And so I had a Skype conversation with her and I actually got that freelancer job for them where I then worked for a couple of years and used my vacations and days off to work with them and help them communicate better online. Since February this year, I am no longer in Delta and I wanted to emigrate – that was my main plan and goal. I wanted to change the country and go to another culture. It’s something that has somehow always been my plan at some point, so it was a matter of time, and then since I had already decided to quit the corporation because I realized I wasn’t such a corporate type and that I preferred some other ways of working. In Delta, I was more involved in PR, and I am more interested in digital communications and communications in some other areas. Not so much the media, PR, because I really like to take care with what I feed my brain, and the media in Serbia should be filtered very, very well. So I left the corporation with the goal of going abroad and that’s it. However, as it happens with our plans, you know when you plan one thing and something else happens. Nobody even imagined that this situation would happen to us. I went to interviews, went abroad for interviews, and applied for jobs, and contacted all the people I possibly know abroad. I pulled all the connections and contacts I could and it all started nicely until of course the state of emergency came and the pandemic started. So, it all paused. And then, since I wanted to work abroad, and what’s another thing for me since I can’t move right now, then I said, Okay, now I’ll at least find a foreign company and work “remotely” and work from here. And then I found a British company that I initially started working for, and started working in the field of digital marketing. They work more for the foreign market so they do things that are quite advanced for us, because here it is still – online shopping is not so developed. Therefore, marketing on the Internet is more at that “brand awareness” level and little is done and bought online, so you can’t measure those results as you can when you are buying abroad.

Sanja Milosavljevic:  Yes, you are right, I know that from personal experience and from the experience of people I talk to and who are working on ecommerce here in Serbia. Sorry, continue.

Ana Brzaković: So, I started working for them. And then I saw along the way that I had to open my own company and see what I would then, and find someone else whom I could help with that knowledge and experience I have.. And then I went into that procedure of opening my agency, and then literally by chance, I came across another client who actually asked me who I would recommend and told me what they needed. I literally wanted to solve their problem, in a sense, “you should do this and that” and gave them all of my knowledge. I told them, I will tell you what to do, and you have to find someone in your company to implement it. You know, like here, I’ll give you knowledge, I’ll help you. And they were like, no, we need it in the long run, can you be our consultant. So, I started working for them. Then they called me from some other organization to hold some trainings and now I am preparing that. Then they called me from the third organization where I then realized, okay now I will really need help. So I called friends and people for whom I know they work in a certain field and like, do you have time to get involved if I win this project? I will not be able to be alone on a hundred projects and I do not want my quality to decrease, but to provide the best possible service and help other people. So, it all started. I am still on beginning but it develops and I have decided to play and see how far I will go.

Sanja Milosavljevic: How far are you going, yes … hey, but you see you say that things coincided by chance and now it’s not a phrase “nothing is accidental”, but you probably released some massive energy that was cluttered by some things that didn’t interest you, and now that the freed space, everything is actually pushing you forward. I mean, sometimes it goes that way, nothing is by chance, as our grandmas would say. And you see, it’s interesting to me – I follow your blog and I really like it because it’s quite smart, written in good style. As a teacher of Serbian language, I have some requirements that good text should meet. It is obvious that you read a lot, which can be seen – and when you share some information and if something is summarized in an advice, in general, we can see that there is preparation material behind that. We can see that you have read some books and you dedicated serious work to some topics. How fulfilling is writing for you, or is it just part of it, you are building “brand awareness” for your company? Is it part of that story or is it just your hobby?

Ana Brzaković: Actually no, I also enrolled in Journalism and I started that role, because I love to write a lot. Writing is my great love and I also like to read and that is somehow connected. And I think that there are few writers that do not like to read and are not well-read. I started it out of love, there are a couple of posts on my blog about digital marketing, but there aren’t that many. I think that most of the posts are about personal development and some other topics, and that is the field that I am most interested about. And it is true what you said. When I left the corporation, I first had a huge amount of free time that I didn’t have at all until then and that I missed a lot, because I lacked time for myself and to dedicate to the things that I really love. I had to return to myself, literally. So, in the first couple of months, when I started working for that British company, I communicated to them some things. Like, I do not work during weekends, I am here for everything you need, I will finish all urgent and important tasks during working hours. After that I want to disconnect and want to have time for myself, because I really missed it. And it turned out to be a great thing, because in that me-time I have managed to return to myself and find my energy and interests so it reflected other things as well. But I write mostly about those things that were useful to me and I really like – I read a lot … I read on average, one book per week, actually. I read quite fast and quite a lot. I take the field that interests me and then I find books that people recommend that are proven to be good for me in that area, I try to really go into depth, to look at something from several sides and then to find out how I can apply it in practice. And it turns out to be very good because I see, for example, the clients I work with now – I tell them “you have that  in the book” or “look at this training” or “you have that book” but people just are not sure whether they don’t like to read or not, it’s much better for them if someone steps in, present it to them, teach them like “let’s practice a little” and to summarize it. Which is great for me – more job for me. But it fulfills me and I do that out of love, more than building “brand awareness”. I mean, there is a little bit of that, but then I would`t – I would write only about digital marketing, and I am not just digital marketing, I am a lot more.

Sanja Milosavljevic: A lot more, yes. We can see that in your blog posts. There is something interesting for me, and recently, you wrote a blog post about it. I learned about a concept of lifelong learning maybe 20 years ago. A university colleague that came from Belgium to do a PhD told me about it. He studied Slavic studies. He told me about this lifelong learning concept and I like it a lot. Because, you finish your university studies, and then you have some more instances – especially for Humanistic studies. You can write your PhD and that’s it. It is not a medicine, and you have several more substudies. So, for these humanistic studies, you continue to specialize, but in a sense of formal education, you reach the end. But then, you can continue to specialize until the end of your life. What do you think about that? What’s the point of lifelong learning?

Ana Brzaković: First, I make a difference between learning and self development. One area is my professional area. I work in the digital marketing field. And there are so many things that can be learned and that often change because platforms change, tools change, new things come, trends change, generations change, market needs, people. Of course, we also have some principles that are, so to speak, eternal and that last, possibly being slightly upgraded, but a lot of other things are changing and that you can learn. And now again, that area of digital marketing is huge. I am more or less expert in writing and for that some strategic part of planning. For example, I am terrible in design. Don’t give me to work on design. Because when I see something, I can give feedback to say what bothers me and what doesn’t suit me, but I can’t design something myself. I am, my professional field, is copy-writing and everything that has to do with it. That means making all possible sales pages, email marketing and strategies for it, working on, researching customer avatars, all those things that involve marketing, that include presentations, that include public speaking through presentations. All this is done through words, through correct linguistics, through an area that is my zone of genius or my area where I can contribute the most. I understand both google ads and Facebook ads, but to let me set up a good campaign for you and guarantee for it, well  there are people who do it better. I have that attitude that I know exactly on the market whom I would recommend for those things that I know less about, and everyone should be doing what she/he is best at and what is a zone of genius for her/him. I would not interfere in that, although, of course, I know something about everything, because I have to know how to follow it as that is the area I work within. So, one side is that professional development, and there you always have new concepts and new models, but it depends again on the lecturer. Especially because all the knowledge – 95% of the knowledge and what we learn, comes from abroad. It doesn’t mean that we don`t have experts here. We have great people here, experts, people that do great jobs and present excellent results. But, our market is smaller and less developed. If I learn from someone who is in America and who is in Western Europe and who has achieved huge results there with much bigger budgets and a much bigger, much different market that is much more demanding and much different-

Sanja Milosavljevic: And more developed.

Ana Brzaković: Well, yes. Then it is – there is something different – and plus what they are doing there will eventually come to us. So somehow if I want to learn in the future, then I learn from them. So a lot of the training and stuff I go through, I go through something every day. Literally, not a day goes by that I don’t watch at least some part of the training, so, at least half an hour during the day, to watch some of these training sessions. These are all people from abroad and now there are a lot of them – each of them has their own terminology or some concept they have made and there is so much that can be learned. If someone tells you “I know everything now, I learned everything”, I just – how can you? It is impossible. Because, there is so much of it,  that it is more of a problem to find what that that you really need. Because, you can also enter into that negative side where you learn everything and read about everything, but you don’t need everything. You only need specific – you need something that you know that has been tested, that it is good and that from plenty of those lessons, both people and lecturers, you’ll find someone you will listen and you learn from. That is the bigger problem than what you will learn, as there are plenty of resources.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Please, say.

Ana Brzaković: Yes, that is one side, professional side. Second one is this field of personal development, that has nothing to do with digital marketing and with the source of my income and what is providing for my living. That is the field of my personal interests. For example, after I left the corporation, I said that I would no longer work like that and live like that. And then I started exploring the area of productivity and the area of time management and how you can work less and achieve more and earn more and how to organize yourself better, to present yourself to others so they value your time as well. And I read about six books about that topic and wrote blog posts about that. And I am planning to write some more, but I don’t have time right now. But, for example, an area that is not necessary, is not  necessary professional, but supports it, whatever someone is doing, he will need to be instructed and understand and have as much knowledge and information about productivity, how to be more productive, how to find 80-20% of the things that will give him 80% of the results and how to work better and smarter, actually. Not more, smarter, that’s the point. Then I started exploring the fields of communication, negotiation and sales. As, communication, negotiation and sales are connected. I was always running away from sales, like I don’t know how to do it, I don’t like to bargain, I don’t like to sell – if someone else can sell, I will just work. But, in fact, that’s the wrong way of thinking and basically, we are trying to sell something for all of our lives. We sell ourselves, we sell ideas, everything is sales. And then like okay, you can’t not like it, you have to love selling, you have to hug it and learn and make friends with sales and learn how to sell, be good at it and love it. And now, selling is very interesting and challenging and fun to me and now when I come across people who were like me, I’m like “wow that’s completely wrong, now we’re going to work on it and you will see how fun that can be and how it can be worked on. ” So then I started reading about it and changing some of my beliefs and my paradigms of seeing some things to just be more successful, to do better and to achieve better things in life. So I, I don’t know, the third thing for me was interpersonal relationships, networking, with people and with life partnerships, so I started reading a lot about what people do, so how … and those are some maybe small things that don’t learn instantly- nobody tells you something that is- that never crossed your mind and I don’t know if anyone discovered something new in this topic. But, on the other hand, when it is all served well, when someone gives you real advice on things that you can do. I mean, all of these books that I read – people often think and I would like to mention that, people often think of personal development as a positive thinking. And you read and somebody tells you to think positive, say ohm, and everything is going to be great.

Sanja Milosavljevic: And the Universe says yes.

Ana Brzaković: For sure, yes. And like, everything comes with ease. Like personal development is boring, I don’t know how you can believe in that and all the rest. But I think it is a wrong way of looking at personal development. There are books that tell you to just think positive. And think positive – it’s a great thing – but it’s something so basic that it goes without saying, and those books are not about thinking positive and you will do great, it’s books where people have been dealing with that topic for years, studying, working with companies, achieving results, did research. All of these books regarding these topics and that help you develop the skills you want to improve, are based on science. And it is not like, “doo up, think positive, have your affirmation thoughts.” Ok, from time to time, you can find these…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, there is that, and I think that, for example, at least on the Internet or on Facebook, some charlatans are present on social networks, so then that personal development and that “think positive” concept somehow got a negative connotation in the masses. And actually, it’s just a mistake that they’re … I remember someone – I can’t remember the name, but I think his last name was Wolf or something. He has been “popping up” on Facebook for years, and when you open the fridge, he comes out with positive thinking. For example, he spread a lot of misinformation and at some point slipped into sharing wrong information and advice. So I think because of that, maybe people have a little defence attitude and are a little bit suspicious when that personal development is a topic… and what it is- here, you say you left the corporation, you’ve been practicing it for a while. How do you see in yourself, apart from sales, how can you see in yourself that this investment in reading and research in the personal development field has helped you? Some small thing, it doesn’t have to be a big thing, some small thing on a daily level. Like, have you changed some habit, it doesn’t have to be huge, but something small?

Ana Brzaković: There are a lot of things and they are not small. Actually, those small things become big things when you follow them in time. I`ve told you recently about the book “Atomic habits” that I’ve recently finished reading and those small things that we look at something like “it is nothing, what does it matter if I can do only 15 min of workout”, but by doing this, you are working out for 15 minutes every day and that is not a small thing. So I see it in my quality of life, in the way I feel differently and we all actually have those needs and everything ultimately comes down to feeling. Everybody wants to follow their own feelings. If you are – happiness does not necessarily depend on how much money you have or on how successful you are, but depends on your measurement of happiness and the feeling that you have. So, everything you manage, to set your life in such a way that you are satisfied with yourself and that you manage to have things that are you set up around you and that you feel satisfied and you see that what you makes sense and that you have some new goals and things that you can’t wait to commit to and that every time you wake up you can’t wait to sit down to work and finish something and think about it all the time. That is something that keeps you fulfilled. And there are plenty of those things. I have actually done workouts for some years now, and no matter what, sometimes it is very hard, sometimes you don’t want to do the training. And they you just start, you remember all of those things and force yourself and you have all of those things that you have read and then I repeat them to myself. Or I take and extract some things that are very important and very useful to me and I often go through my notebook and then and I repeat it to myself because then it pushes me forward. But you can see it specifically, for example, since the beginning of the year, it’s a huge difference for me. Usually, it takes a very brave step and some bigger change to be able to see bigger differences in a relatively shorter period of time. But we can do it with smaller changes. It can be tricky as we do not see them day after day, but when you gather them…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Cumulatively, yes you can see…

Ana Brzaković: Cumulatively gather, then…

Sanja Milosavljevic: You can see the results, great. So, you said that you worked in human resources, in the HR department, and what do you think a CV should look like? For example, I want to apply for a job opening. I have all sorts of experiences. I have different diplomas and experiences. How should I write a CV? For example, I want to find a job in a company that provides transportation services. What should I do? I have finished Humanities, then worked as a translator – what should I do to be acceptable for them so they would call me for the second round of interview?

Ana Brzaković: I wrote a blog about that recently, maybe you are asking me this because of that.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Not completely, that is a serious topic as the labour market is really disrupted at the moment. Especially after the pandemic. People lost their jobs, they need to retrain. That is also a huge problem, how to make that decision to change your career and start doing something that you haven’t educated yourself for. And then I think, we make mistakes when we write CVs – either we have an experience or not, either we are beginners or we have a career, it is like we don’t know how to write a CV. We follow the template, there is Europass, we fill in the fields, but…

Ana Brzaković: It is because, CV is just a tool, just one small piece. CV is not that important. If we are observing a wider picture, CV is just a classic form. Essence is what matters and that wider picture that people in our country, I am not sure if they have and how much are they aware of it. Because, first you have to be self-aware, you have to constantly invest in yourself and constantly learn. And you have to know that it is your self-confidence – I have, at the very beginning of that blog post I wrote that the birds on the branch are not afraid of whether the branch will fall or not because its self-confidence is not in the branch but in its wings. I mean, whatever you do, that’s why I don’t like it when people introduce themselves, like “My name is, and I am the Account Manager in that company” or they tell you the name and last name and immediately after that they introduce a title. You are not your title. Your job description is not your self description. And it’s such a big pandemic beside this current one, because what you’re doing at work is current, someone gave you that title, they can also take that title from you – deservedly or undeservedly, the reasons are absolutely different. So, I don’t like those titles, that hierarchy. Like, I am successful and important if I hold a title, and if I don’t hold it, then I am not. What really matters is what knowledge you have, skills, what your mindset is, whether or not you can help someone, whether you are proactive, whether you are pleasant to talk to, whether you can give someone a call, make an appointment, whom you know, can someone introduce you to someone, so when you go to that meeting and talk to someone then that someone will see that there is a normal person in front of them who is great and who might get involved in a team that can help. People are not aware of that, and the same thing with, now they will polish their CV, so I don’t know, so it looks like wow in terms of design. I mean, it’s great, the CV should stand out from the rest and it should be tailored to the company it is aimed for. We all have some various experiences, we did all sorts of things, but if I am applying with the company that is in logistics, I am not going to write that I want to work as an operator in call center, I am not going to write that I have worked as an HR or in sales and whatever. Maybe that is important for a call center, but I am not going to write something irrelevant. So, what skills do I need to work in a call center, and then I will put it in my CV and tailor it specifically for that position, that is, to make it fit the position I am applying for.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So, it is not like I have one CV and I attach it and send it_ We should dedicate out time a bit.

Ana Brzaković: Well yes, unfortunately. Yes. It has to change, but as I said, more important is the attitude and mindset. Because people are looking for – and when companies are looking for employees, they are looking for people who will help them solve a problem and reach the goal faster. And it’s actually always seen that way, you have to see how you can help them. You need to go to their web site and see what they are doing, and give them some suggestions “well, I think this could be better and this should be done different” or “I attended one of your events and I was really interested in what you do ”or I read, I don’t know, this or that. Draw attention to yourself like the one who did the research, like you inquired, that you learned something about them. For example, when I applied for positions abroad, I applied for a position where I reached the final round, for the position I didn’t have a clue about. I’ve never dealt with it, nor do I have knowledge, but I was interested in job description. I researched what that position does, so I found forums and websites where people who deal with it are, and I read the “best practices” to learn what and how. And I got feedback that they were pleasantly surprised how much I knew about that position and how nicely I understood even though I had never dealt with it. But that’s only because I spent hours researching, reading about it and seeing how that person should work in their company – what exactly should she/he has to do to give the best results. You can not do that for every position. There are some positions and posts that require time to learn and understand the job. But, there are things that you can learn. And that’s exactly what I was talking about in that blog post and recently I told the students what is exactly more important in job search than a CV, where two things are the foundation and the basis, and that is “growth mindset” and “abundance mentality”, one is that…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Can you translate it to Serbian language?

Ana Brzaković: Yes… I read and learn in English language, so for me…

Sanja Milosavljevic: It is clear to me, majority probably know, when you say those two terms, but for an example for someone who does not know, what would it be…

Ana Brzaković: Well, “abundance mentality” is translated as “mentalitet obilja” in our country and it is a way of thinking, like in our country everyone thinks that everything is limited and if my colleague gets a salary increase it means that I will not be able to get one also because there is not enough, or if someone gets rich, there is some limited part of the money so I won’t be left enough for me or if someone is successful then it will take away from my success – which is completely incorrect. There are enough resources in the world and enough for all the people and that pie, like in “pie chart”, well the pie is not limited. And it is just a way of thinking we all should start from – possibilities are unlimited and there is enough of everything in this world. It depends on how you want to invest in yourself, to make extra effort for something to reach for something and work to acquire it. And that is the first most important thing. I don’t like people who say “well, there’s not enough work, it’s difficult now”. Well, if you think like that, then there isn`t. If you think it’s difficult, then it’s difficult. Or when you ask them how it is at work “well, I can’t complain, it’s important that I have a job”. Well, it’s not just important to have a job, it shouldn’t be your criterion. I mean it’s important to have a job, but it’s important to be both satisfied and happy – you’re at that job for a minimum of eight hours a day and often longer and it’s really important to be happy and do something good. And each of us has hers/his own talent and some reason why she/he is on this earth because she/he needs to show and give and share something. And you need to be in an environment where you can express yourself and where you can give your best. Not just “It’s good, I have a job and”… I mean, on the other hand, so that you could position yourself like that “if it doesn’t suit me here, I’ll go and find something else”, well then you have to invest in yourself, you have to move forward, you have to maintain contacts, you have to continuously learn, to deal with yourself, so that, so to say, “easily” manage, and nothing is easy.

Sanja Milosavljevic: To close the circle, in fact, yes, it can’t be closed if something is missing.

Ana Brzaković: And this “growth mindset” is … now I don’t know exactly how it is translated into Serbian, but it’s a way of thinking where you believe that there is not a single thing you can’t learn. Because, there are many things we don’t know, no matter how great experts we are, no matter how much work experience we have, no matter how many years of work experience we have, the more you know, the more you realize, how little you know. It’s a way of thinking where you’re aware “I don’t know much, but there’s nothing I can’t learn.” And that I can learn absolutely everything and that’s why it’s okay, maybe I’m looking for a job and I want to get a job somewhere and I don’t have enough experience and I don’t have maybe those seven years of experience they are looking for, I have 3 or 4 but I I have a mindset that I will learn everything and I will learn faster than then the ones with seven years of experience and you need to hire me. This is a mindset you go for a job interview with, where you may not have all the criteria they are looking for. And people want to see other people who are confident, who have an attitude and who are willing to go a step further and be proactive and give some suggestions of their own and fight for their position. That`s a positive thing. So these are two things that are much more important than a CV, and that CV is an item that of course- you have a lot of people dealing with it now, I’m not an expert on it, but I also wrote my CVs as “mind map ”so when you click one thing other one opens. Well, it depends, when I applied for creative agencies, I was still looking for my first job, I was like okay, my CV should be creative. I can not send a Word document, I will make a mind map. People were really thrilled and called me but the offer didn’t suit me. So it’s more like – figure out and see what works. If you are applying, make a CV in a shape of a truck, if you are applying for the transport industry. Be creative, get out of the box, find something different. You have to stand out and you have to think that you don’t know many things, of course, but you will learn. And there’s enough, if you don’t get that job you’ll find something else, you’ll get something better. There are always new opportunities, there are always new jobs and people and things, and that is how life and work and the world should be viewed. And it really gets that way. Because what you believe in, that is the true. What your thoughts are…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, what your thoughts are, that is your life. We return to that sentence. Tell me, what do you think about network, networking, is there a safe network for you, a safe place? Because it’s great, you’re successful, you’re smart, you’re young, you’re beautiful, but it certainly happens to you, maybe one day during the year that you may have a bad day, you don’t want to do anything – who do you turn to? What is your safe net? I am not thinking of your mum, sister, brother. It is not a member of your family, but rather someone who is in the industry, yours or any other industry. Is there such a place? Do you have a sanctuary?

Ana Brzaković: First, if it were just one bad day during the year, it would be great. And it is constant, sometimes, during the day…

Sanja Milosavljevic: I start from myself, yes, there are those fluctuations.

Ana Brzaković: … high and lows. There is certainly nothing 100 % certain, and it is like something that I often mention, and that is that a secure job does not exist and that people still think that it is a success if you get a job in a company you now have a secure job. And that sentence “I got a permanent contract” for people, it’s their success and happiness. That permanent contract – you can get fired tomorrow. So, nothing is certain and nothing is forever. We should all know that. We should work hard and we should work actively on it and consciously deal with the things we want to have in life. So even if we want to have that network and have that support and if we want to be surrounded by people we will be able to contact when we need something, well, we need to contact them when we don’t need anything and we need to contact them, because we want them in our lives and because we are glad to have them around us. So “networking” is a very important life skill and a skill that everyone should develop. And I think that we are not aware of it. When I started working, I thought that what was more important to me were some of my skills, knowledge, what I could do, how fast I would do something, whether I was faster or slower. And then they taught me slowly and that’s what I’m talking about – I say that one of the best things I got from Delta was just all the contacts and people I met doing that job. Because they told me that it is much more important – every skill you need to organize a press conference, to write a statement, to do anything that is technical, you need some knowledge for that, but it is all learned pretty quickly. You do it once or three times, and by the fourth time, you are..

Sanja Milosavljevic: Doing it automatically…

Ana Brzaković: Well, yes, you have learned. But what is much more important, and what is much more difficult is maintaining those interpersonal relationships and building relationships that last, where you just have people you can turn to when you have different problems. And that is a very important thing. I had and still have mentors in different fields, because you are aware of what you need. I had a mentor, for example, as, when I started working in Delta, that is, at the position Communications, I didn’t know people from the media because I studied journalism in Nis and I didn’t live in Belgrade, nor did I move in those circles and I just didn’t know anyone. And then, the company hired an external mentor who introduced me to people from the media. We went on meetings, business lunches and that is how I got to meet those people. And it was on me to keep contact with them regularly, to maintain those relationships.

Sanja Milosavljevic: To maintain those relationships, yes…

Ana Brzaković: I still meet with them and I always like to go on a hiking trip or a sporting event – I mean rarely these days because of this situation. But I maintain relationships with the people I met there. Then I had a coach with whom I worked on some of those corporate relationships, organizing projects, people, my own time, and organizing it all. I had a business coach with whom I worked on my business and organizational skills, so those are completely different things from getting to know and writing press releases and stuff. So we had colleagues who were a lot more experienced than I was in writing interviews, press releases, all of that stuff. In order to learn, I always wanted to write daft versions of these documents. Even if I had to stay longer hours, because writing is a type of work where you have to be alone, with no noise around you. But then I write those draft versions, send them and then they give me feedback and then of course, you get better and you learn more. So, it is all one process. So, it is very important to have a network of people who you call, and you know what you are calling them for, but not only when you need something, but you call them just to talk to them, and at the end, you become friends with them. You don’t see them as persons who can do you a favour. So, it just goes on its own.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, yes. Today I heard a great expression – it probably exists from who knows when, but for me it is completely new. It is “instamacy” – combination of instant and intimacy, that marked this pandemic period. Suddenly, our walls go down easily. We are pushed against the wall, things have changed, the dynamics have changed, nothing is the same anymore and suddenly we get into relationships easier, we make contact more easily. And we are not physically close, we are at distance, but we make contact with ease. Sorry, it wasn`t on the list of questions, but that term is interesting for me. What about you, can you see in yourself or in your example that you have easily and quickly made a relationship in the last few months, but in the sense that the walls have literally fallen because we realize that it is pointless to build walls and then tear them down to make a relationship.

Ana Brzaković: Well, by nature I am a very open person and by nature I am not closed and not willing to share. We are all, business and private life, it is all one life. I don’t have things to hide. If I have a great day, I am okay, and if I have a bad day or something bad happens, I say something bad has happened. I don’t hide anything, I am a very open person and communicate easily with others and I can talk on different topics. I just didn’t get into a situation where I was struggling to establish communication with someone because somehow – maybe that’s why it’s a good thing when you read a lot and when you follow and know a lot of things because then you can talk about different topics. But it’s interesting. This is my favourite quote regarding people and networking> “your network is your net worth”. Your network shows…

Sanja Milosavljevic: You rich you are.

Ana Brzaković: Yes, the number of people you know. Sometimes it is more important for you to know the right person than to know how to solve a problem. So, that is very important. And also, since I read a lot about networking, I made my own list of a hundred people. Because they say, make a list like you are about to lose your job tomorrow and you lose everything – permanent income and all that -who would those 10, 20, 50 people be. And make a list of those people and then make a list of people you may not hear from so often but would like to stay connected. Or you met them somewhere and they are great, but they are not the closest circle of friends, so have that list too. Then you make those higher lists – categories of people you would like to be in contact with and then you start calling from time to time and continuously maintain relationships with those people. So I really started doing this, because now that I work from home, ever since I stopped working at Delta, I work from home completely, but I don’t mind that at all. It’s even much better for me, I’m much more productive and when I’m at home I finish everything and then, for example, I go out for lunch with someone or I arrange to see someone in the evening or we go for a walk. And then I also found people with whom I haven’t seen physically for a very long time and with whom I don’t hang out and go out, we met somewhere, we are connected on social networks and I see that that person is great but I didn’t hang out with them and then I leave a message “are you interested…” And now I see it means literally, what you said – the energy – now some people have started calling me. It is like, “We mentioned you on several occasions, are you available to go for a coffee.” And then I say. yes. So I expand the network of people that I meet with and with whom – they are not my closest friends, but again they are phenomenal people who do some phenomenal things that inspire me and for whom I think are great, with whom I want to be in contact. So I am very consciously engaged in my networking, that is, connecting with people who are important to me, who are wow to me, who are interesting to me, from whom I would like to learn and with whom I would like to be in contact. So these are all things that are done very consciously and it is not something that we see later as someone is just happy or someone is doing great. It is not something that just happens, someone is consciously working on it.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Someone made an effort…

Ana Brzaković: Yes, for all those things.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, Ana, we reached the end of our conversation. I always ask my guests to send a message. It doesn’t have to be great wisdom, just a message to people, it doesn’t have to be encouragement, nut something that you would love to share. Something authentic for Ana Brzakovic.

Ana Brzaković: Well what’s authentic and mine is mainly on my blog. But I think my main message is that people need to deal with themselves much more than they deal with other people. Because the moment you get to know yourself and when you really know – I mean then you will know your negative sides and moments when you can be difficult and awkward and you know what`s area of genius, or I’m not good at these areas, so you might give someone warning to announce to her/him this is where it is possible that I will react badly in these situations and that is great. The message is that people should work on themselves, and invest in themselves and learn about themselves because when you are okay with yourself, when you work on yourself, then you also have self-confidence then you can be okay with other people. You can not give to others if you don’t have it in yourself. So if you want to help other people and give something to the world and leave something behind, you have to be satisfied and you have to work on yourself and invest in yourself. So, that is the message I would send.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you a lot. I really enjoyed our conversation. Especially, since of course it is always the most spontaneous when talking in the mother tongue and I’m sorry that we don’t have hours and hours to do so- because I think you have so many layers of personality that we haven’t even touched and layers of interest that we haven’t even touched, and I think are important. Thank you for listening. This was Ana Brzakovic. If you like, you can always follow us on social media, on audio platforms, so stay good, stay in good health and see you in a week.