Sanja Milosavljevic: So, hi, hello – my name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I’m going to be your host today. We’re going to talk with Jana. Jana is from Estonia and she is a tech-girl. So, hope you’re going to have a great time with the two of us. Jana, hi! Hello, how are you?

Jana Budkovskaja: Hello! Absolutely perfect, thank you!

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you for accepting my invitation to participate in this project. I think it’s very important for the people in Serbia, but not only in Serbia, in the world to hear the voice of a lady that is so successful like you are.

Jana Budkovskaja: Ah, thank you.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So, can you tell us something about yourself? What do you do? What’s your educational background? What are your hobbies, interests, something like that?

Jana Budkovskaja: Okay, my education – I’m environmental physics, but I work- I think that I just initiate different projects and implement them. So, it’s my work. If just to speak about the names, then I’m- for now I’m running tech ideas fund, so we pick up and scout for good teams for innovative ideas and we give the money for them to start to prototype and go further with their startups. But I also, I’m the co-founder of a brand new startup hub in Narva. It is in the border region of Estonia, so we are in 150 meters from Russia. And this object, this hub is called “Objekt”, so I’m- this very strange person who is working in different angles of our country, thinks that our country is very small. Only like 200 with something kilometers and I can cross the whole country so I can start work in Tallinn and then I go to Narva. And that’s basically what I do. And my hobbies are mainly other projects. So sometimes I have like, I don’t know what is my main job and what is my hobbies. So everything is very mixed. But maybe what I really love to do when I want to be absolutely on different side, then I either make some sports or I’m drawing. So, this is it.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah I know, I remember when we were in the States you were always doing something – checking your emails, making some plans. You were always in the move, you could never stop. 

Jana Budkovskaja: No I can’t, absolutely.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, well that was my first impression of you. It’s very interesting – do you have any kind of material? Promo material for Objekt? It would be very interesting for people in Serbia to see because the letters are the same, it’s the Cyrillic letters, as I remember. Yeah? Do you have anything? Any promo material?

Jana Budkovskaja: I suppose the easiest way is just to go to our website, so it’s objekt.is so it’s- Objekt is really not like ‘object’ in English, but we wanted, you know, Objekt. It’s in Estonian and in Russian because Narva is-

Sanja Milosavljevic: At the border?

Jana Budkovskaja: So we had in Estonia, we had this Russian-speaking minority, but in Narva it is majority. Because it’s 97% of all inhabitants of Narva are basically Russian-language speakers. So that’s why we wanted to play with this word. And also, I really love it that – Objekt, you know, it’s very open. When you have some kind of building, before the building is already done, it is an object – where it’s like construction object, or whatever, some testing object, experimenting. So I thought let it be something which can never, ever be, you know, done, which should be something in the movement. But I really don’t have anything, because…

Sanja Milosavljevic: No, never mind. No, it just crossed my mind at the moment when you mentioned object that it’s the same letters.

Jana Budkovskaja: You know we are still bootstrapping, as you can imagine, just to build up this, I don’t know, stuff or this building and to equip it. We have raised one million and a half. So basically we really do not have any kind- anything- not any kind of cups or whatever. I have only hoodie what we bought for ourselves, which is written Objekt. And then we just bought one more hoodie. So I have – me and my co-founder. And we have styled it that on the back we have a big letter of- the first letter of our names. So I have J, and he has A. And also we have bought one more hoodie and put K, and we gift- it was a present for our president Kersti Kaljulaid because when we- when it was the first opening of the Objekt, we invited President. So she has been in Objekt and we have gifted her with this hoodie. So it’s the only merch what we had.

Sanja Milosavljevic: You don’t have anything else. That’s good – that’s basically sustainable. What do you plan to do with that fund? Do you have any- is it going to be an incubator, is it going to be accelerator? What’s the- how did you- how do you want to use the funds? Do you want to just give it to some- can you explain?

Jana Budkovskaja: Yeah, I’m- really very…I know that the people who are talking to me and don’t know me, they always a little bit mess up the fund and the Objekt. The fund is Prototron and I raise money there also, but I raise like 200-300 thousand per year and this we give out for the startups.  And the Objekt, I raise the money just to build up the building. So it was an old building from the old factory. Basically it was a very big dining hall. So we have equip by the whole floor, built up everything there. And, first we thought that maybe we need some incubator. But then when I started to think about what we want really to create and just to gain about the background. This northeast of Estonia where Narva is situated is- first of all is highly industrial region. And it was, you know, the population in this region in some cases was, like, you can imagine, it was absolutely like- how to say- like, changed, you know, for example, during the II World War, everybody were evacuated but then they were never ever allowed to come back. The new people were brought in. So we have some communities which are like second generation, so you know, they don’t have so well rooted. That’s why they were rooted not to the place and land, but they were rooted like, to the factories because they were brought to work for the factories. We have huge factories in this region. And it means that until now we have the lowest levels of entrepreneurship, we don’t have any kind of creative industry, some big artists, or musicians or- because everybody were only like working on the factories. So when you wanted to- when we started to run activities about startups and about creative industries and some new way of making business in this region, then I basically thought that- I just build up the platform and we will be growing like- making the community around it. So I want, you know, everybody to feel themselves very comfortable in these rooms. But I thought that I will be inviting other incubators, acceleration programs, funds, whatever, those who already know how to do stuff, they will come and they will for example- work with their own programs on our platform. So for example we have in Estonia – maybe you have heard that Estonia is one of the like highly start-upish countries in the world.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well I know, actually, I know that you also have unicorn companies in Estonia. 

Jana Budkovskaja: Yes, we have four of them.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Four!

Jana Budkovskaja: Four, yes. And we only 1.2 million inhabitants in Estonia and we have 4 unicorns. Yes, it’s absolutely record. And we have governmental association. It’s called Startup Estonia. So everything what you would like to get to know about Estonian startups, you just put startupestonia.ee and you get everything. So for example we have branch of Startup Estonia working also in Narva. Then we have the biggest and the oldest startup incubator from Tallinn they also working in Narva. So we have created a space for them and they are running their own programs from there. And from Monday we start to work with the main clean tech and green tech association in Estonia who are working also as European EIT, it’s like European Innovation…or something…

Sanja Milosavljevic: European Innovation Technologies, I think that’s the acronym…

Jana Budkovskaja: Yeah, yeah it is. So, yes. They have centers everywhere all around Europe. And those who are working in Estonia is clean tech and green tech. So we start the programs from minding in Narva. So it means that I don’t need to create something new, but I would like to host everyone. So if there is in Serbia some cool company or association or something who would like to enlarge themselves for Nordic countries or to Baltics or to Russia, then of course it will be… I hope that Objekt will be taken into consideration as the place.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well I hope that- actually I know some people and I can connect them, or I can give your contacts to them so- because they are basically dealing with circular economy and green tech, clean tech, so maybe you can cooperate in some- on some level, or in some way.

Jana Budkovskaja: It’s a pleasure.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Perfect. But, was it the strategic decision of your government to, I don’t know, build a community that is- that supports tech startups or technologies. Are you- Estonia is on the North so you probably don’t have agriculture or something like that-

Jana Budkovskaja: We have.

Sanja Milosavljevic: What’s that? I know, I know- I know that you have, but how come that- the small country, you said it has 1.2 million citizens and you have four unicorn companies. So was that a strategic decision to help to develop tech companies in Estonia.

Jana Budkovskaja: You know, we call- the nowadays success we call ‘Skype effect. And of course, like 20 years ago our government and I suppose a lot of other governments besides maybe San Francisco, have never thought about ‘unicorn startups’ or something like this. I just recently read that the first time in magazine Forbes the name, or term of ‘startup’ was used in 1960, or no- 1986. So it’s not so old word. But, okay, they education was always very big key point of development of Estonia, so it was always like the education is very valuable and we have two main- no we have three big universities. One in Tartu which is very academic and is one of the oldest ones in Europe. Another also we have in Tallinn which is Tallinn Technical University – TalTec – and it was always very very strong. So basically we value a lot education, and then- then we have a lot of jokes on why we have chosen technology. So Estonians are very resilient- so, persistence and resilience is like the same-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Equal! Equals Estonia!

Jana Budkovskaja: Yes. And, so, technology and math is one of the big points- it was always like this. For example, we have had very good engineers with- for the- for example the formulas, so in machines, we have had for example a really very,very big and very component- huge competence about oil shale technology, which is basically petroleum technology, so like – it was always there. And, again about the jokes, we just believe that in Estonia because we are so North, basically we have only three months of sunlight, and then already we have very, very short days during December, November, I don’t know – January, February, March. Only like five hours per day we have sun. So we don’t have anything to do, you know, just to work. Because it’s very cold, it’s very windy, it’s like – wah. During the summer we have maybe a couple of weeks of good days. So today is one of them, that’s why, you know, I’m very-

Sanja Milosavljevic: You’re using, you’re using the nice weather.

Jana Budkovskaja: Yes, I’m, absolutely every minute what we have of the summer. And maybe also another point, beside the education, is – when you want to make any kind of innovation, the cooperation with different sides, with the government, with universities, with businesses with different kinds of sectors is absolutely crucial. It means – never ever you can build anything new if you’re only living in your own bubble. And because our country is so small, you know, we- I can reach the President in just two calls. So it’s really- we are very close to each other. It’s- I don’t know, we don’t think that our government is, you know, something very far away. Because they’re our neighbors. They’re like “Oh, I’ve been learning with him, oh I was like, you know, chilling with him in my childhood, lala…”. So, in this case our society is rather flat, so we do not think that the Government is something unreachable. So if we think that we need to, I don’t know, change the law or, I don’t know, we need to make some agreements with somebody to- you know- to up our business or whatever. It’s very common for us to go and find different kinds of connections and put them together. That’s why we have the ‘Skype effect’ it means that when Skype sky-rocketed – sorry for the words – but, and they became very famous and then they- when they- the first exit, when they sold the Skype to paypal first of all. This money and, you know, this competence, everything was inside. And they haven’t disappeared, they were not- they haven’t been anywhere far away. So they until now are working on helping and giving back to the society, to the community. And there are a lot of stories, and a lot of- it’s not even stories, I mean this is how it goes – the new company, when they do something significant well, then they approach these guys who have been, you know, done this path. From zero, from some couple of guys making some coding, until like very, very huge success, they know what the rocks are there, what the gaps are there and they can lead them, the new ones and they can help them with connections and they can very often even help them with mentoring, with investments and so on. So the guys from the- so the same- Unicorns. For example last- last year…everything’s mixed now in my head… I think it was last year, maybe the 2018, but whatever. So for example – Unicorns. They just put their money together and have created an educational or, like educational fund. So this is a fund where you do some kind of new technology or new approach for education, you can apply and you can get the finances from that fund. And it’s not State. But of course State also support it. And there is a lot of support from the Ministries, from the Finances, from the Education, Science Ministry and the Ministry of Economy – they all now help to manage this fund. So, very often the initiatives are coming from ourselves and then we can find support from the government. For example the Prototron what I’m running, so this fund for the tech ideas is basically initiated by the private company, but then University and Science Park, so the Government via Science Park joined the initiative. Objekt in Narva is also my initiative, but I was working for it for four years and then Government also supported – partly supported the initiative. So it like – education, resilience and a very, very small country, so you can be a neighbor of your President. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Oh that’s perfect and that is, actually refreshing to hear. Because most of the time we hear stories that there is a huge gap between Government and its citizens. So, it’s not that easy for us to have that direct contact with the Minister of some department. So it’s very difficult for us to actually get to the- to get information, to get funds…actually to get information. For the first- that’s the first step when you have good and reliable information you can build your story up. Perfect. So, you have that direct and immediate contact with your government. How did they react once the COVID, virus started to break. How did they communicate with the citizens. How did they help the small-scale or middle-sized businesses to overcome? Or did you even have that problems with the economy?

Jana Budkovskaja: Unfortunately yes. I mean, our government…I don’t know, everybody were a little bit- not a little bit. They were shocked because the level of uncertainty is always is on the rise. So you cannot deal with the subject that you cannot absolutely predict or understand or even assume “oh, we can go like this”. But I suppose that…so, in Estonia we…I still haven’t my own position about the total lockdown and total freedom. I don’t know, but…we were closed under the lockdown I suppose one of the first countries from the Baltics. So we closed our schools. I just came from Egypt. So I said “oh okay, I need to be at home, oh okay”. So as you can see now I have equipped so it’s the workspace of my son and I am in here, so we have coworking space, see right now? Because from that time I haven’t ever been to my office. Okay so it’s just a joke, but…yes, so we were under the lockdown very soon. We just- I just think that nobody knew how to react and that’s why one of the easiest points, maybe, it was – just lockdown. Because then you can start to analyze and understand. I really like that rather soon it was…I don’t know how it would be the direct translation into English…okay, but it was some kind of expert committee where scientists were also engaged. And we even joked that “oh, at least our government listened to scientists”. So they were really like, all ears – “Oh, okay, so how you can predict the pandemic? Okay! If we have like this number of the Coronavirus positives, deaths what does it mean? What is the dynamic?”. So it was very nice to see that the- you know, the scientists felt themselves that they were extremely important.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Important…but were you making the media transparent enough with the information regarding COVID?

Jana Budkovskaja: I think yes. I think like…we have a lot of…so it was basically almost every day there were special press conferences with the government, with the Ministries, with the Prime Minister mainly who just announced the numbers, what the state, what we are gonna do. Then we have started to have this press conferences every week and every week there were decisions like do we, like…make some easiest way or we just go into the same way. Do we have some other restrictions do we lose some restrictions? So it was like absolutely every week. And almost- and as you, of course again, our startups and again our Ministry…if I’m not mistaken it was somehow, I was already second week back, but I was under the lockdown, like self-isolation. Because in Egypt just the day I started to come back to Estonia in Egypt they discovered this ship you know in Cairo with this a lot of COVID positives. So I said okay I will be on the self-isolation. But the second week…so the Minister of IT, he called to our startup community and said “We should do something, because we believe in technology”. So under the initiative of the Minister of IT, our startup community in three days organized a huge online hack-a-thon. And it was hack-a-thon about “Hack the Crisis”, so they looked for the ideas, for the solutions, for the rapid prototypes for the how to fight and how to live with this new situation. So from that hack-a-thon we have got a lot of different monitoring systems and platforms so we can go and see about the number about this COVID sense and blah blah blah and all kind of stuff. And of course there were a lot of discussions about education, about distance learning and…but of course the lockdown haven’t- I don’t know any country where lockdown would, you know, bring extra money. Unfortunately- I don’t know, maybe there are. So of course all of our hospitality, tourism sector just like…just crashed.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Guide. Oh, I know, it’s the same here. Creative industries, tourism sector…only maybe food production industry, agri-industry and maybe logistics like delivery services. They are the only ones who made some money. Well, they didn’t shut down, they continued to work. But creative industries, there are no concerts, there are no performances, there’s nothing. So basically those sectors are at the low, low, low level in Serbia. I don’t know how is in Estonia, I suppose it’s the same.

Jana Budkovskaja: Absolutely the same because, you know, because we have only two weeks of summer. So all the events are only during the spring and autumn. So, we just- in March, in the end of March, if I’m not mistaken 20th is the date – we traditionally have the biggest music event which is one of the best, one of the best music festivals, like small festivals. It’s Tallinn Music Week. And of course we canceled it. We canceled the flagship of our startup events Latitude59, which should- would be in the May. So we canceled absolutely everything. I know about the- our creative industries. Those artists and theatres who are like Government…like under the governmental supervision, they were at home, but they have got still their salaries, so they were very happy. Of course all the independent filmmakers and theatres, small and medium musicians like everything…so those who have not any kind of salary from, I don’t know, Conservatorium or, some, whatever-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Theatre or whatever…

Jana Budkovskaja: Yeah, so those who are just as we are, you know, bootstrappers. Of course. THey were just left at home. There were a lot of problems, like, you know…unfortunately this is not fair, but this is the market. For example, when small or independent musician would like, for example, to make a concert like via broadcasting social media, for example Zoom, and he would like to charge some money. Then can you imagine those who have like- the biggest ones who already have access to the state TV, they of course were broadcasted for free but they were paid by the station TV, like National Broadcasting. So it’s like “uuhhh, okay…” but you cannot do anything with this. You know. It’s…you choose to be independent and it means if there is a crisis unfortunately you stay with yourself. But then we have had some other schemes for small and medium enterprises but we have a huge supports also for big…you know…for example Tallink is a company who are making this- ah, not making this…well also making, but so they…the main logistics between Tallinn and Helsinki. So there’s big ships are coming. And they’re also holding the hotels and restaurants, so a lot. And they give workplaces for 5000 people. So of course they have got huge money from Government just, you know, to keep these 5000 people somehow…

Sanja Milosavljevic: On salaries…

Jana Budkovskaja: On salaries, yes. But, for example, in my companies… [laughter]

Sanja Milosavljevic: [laughter] We call that ‘potato’. When there is nothing, we call that potato.

Jana Budkovskaja: So I haven’t got any potato from my government. Just, you know like, be brave. I said okay. [laughter] You know, in Objekt in Narva, because it’s not very- it’s a little bit depressed region- okay, it’s the most depressed region in Estonia, but whatever. So, the prices of real estate is very low so we cannot earn money by real estate. So if, we have coworker space and we have offices, but we do not earn money by renting it out. We earn money only by events, programs, projects and we have also multimedia center, so we have VR sets, computers you know for cyber-sport and so on. And we were the first who were locked-down because our- this multimedia center was the same as, you know, casinos. And it means- you know- it’s very, not so convenient, you know, to clean the VR sets and computers and everything…a lot of touch surfaces. So we were- yeah, we were closed from day one and we were opened – we were allowed to open us, basically on the 1st July. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: That’s a long period of time. That’s a really long period of time.

Jana Budkovskaja: So it’s just like…okay. You are, you…and you know, because we were just in the beginning and we were- we have finished in general, we have finished one big project under what we have had some salaries. So from the 1st of February we haven’t had any salaries and we planned to get salaries from the 1st of April. Because you know, like, in February, March it’s very windy and the cost of the heating and real-estate is very expensive. So we just relocated money and…when we entered the crisis and at that point we haven’t had salaries. And the government said “Oh, you don’t need any kind of help with the salaries!” 

Sanja Milosavljevic: So what did you do? What did you do? How did you overcome that gap? An obstacle?

Jana Budkovskaja: Oh, of course I have agreed to-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Not just you, not just you personally but other people in the same situation. Do you have any stories from your colleagues or from other persons in your life?

Jana Budkovskaja: It just like…everyone just survived this as they could. I mean, with my cofounder we decided that we will keep low profile, so we just you know made some papers, we prepared some new projects, we have discussed a lot, but yes we haven’t seen each other, we didn’t do anything. We even haven’t done any kind of Zoom webinars, nothing, you know. Because I thought it would be unfair if I just put my colleagues, you know, to work and I know that I don’t know when I can pay them salaries. So I said okay, we just…we just happy that we have Objekt. But for example in Prototron it means that…again, okay…in Prototron is not the story because it, we run the competitions and it means that our workload is very wavy, so only I who is having the salary like year-round and the others are working with the contracts. They don’t have salaries. So they’re freelancers. And it’s more comfortable for them and we’re always changing the activities and everything, so they also feel themselves better if they are just, you know, giving me invoices. And it means for them the same, they were not eligible for any kind of help. So we…what we have done, we just decided that of course, well we decided not to cancel anything, but we reconstruction the whole process of Prototron and created the online Prototron. So it was harsh. We have postponed a little bit the deadlines, but yeah. We have many so it means that I have had some money and I raised a little bit more, and…and just like, I could pay the invoices. So everybody were happy. So for example Prototron, we were leaving before our screens, like from March until the June, so…

Sanja Milosavljevic: I am sorry to hear that…I am very sorry to hear that. But it’s also a part of life and business and life with one business.

Jana Budkovskaja: Can you imagine when we will have grandchildren, or we will be you know with gray hairs like in 50 years or 60. Then we come to the big stage and we’ll be talking about how our new ideas which were born during the crisis of 2020.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, I know. But because we have enough time to think about or imagine some new solutions. Can you tell me something about…the name of the- of one of your company is Prototron. What do you think about the word- what does the word prototype or prototyping means to you?

Jana Budkovskaja: Okay, so of course for me it means that you are building up a product until the minimum- it’s not a minimum viable product, but you are building up the certain part of the product to prove the hypo…hypothesis?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Hypothesis.

Jana Budkovskaja: Yes. So for example if I just want to create a new mouse, then I just…I want it to be sleek, then I just create the mockup and test the hypothesis is it more comfortable to use such kind of mouse or not. So for me it’s prototyping. So prototyping, I really love it, I absolutely adore testing and I absolutely in love now with design-thinking. And I really start every- my project or idea or even small event, I start from the problem, I…I don’t…I really love this dynamic you know that…and my teams are already know that I never, ever allow to decide, to make a decision before we call or approach some certain key person. For example if I want to, I don’t know, to check again something, I really- I will read- I will call somebody, I will invite somebody to check, to test it, to try it and…and it means that the prototyping, you know, allows you to be very grounded to the market. I have seen recently a very nice video which was, like, two fighters. One was very active, you know. Before the fighting he has shown a lot of tricks and how he can jump and what he can do, and it’s…it’s really, you know, when we have our new idea, we’re so proud, we’re so involved, like “Aaah, it’s the best one! Yes, and we can do this and this and this and this…” And then come market and make it “bam”. And you can lose everything. Because…you…you can forget some certain side or some certain point and the market will say “pff, what is this”. So I really believe in prototyping and I really believe in Prototron. Really, like, we always start with problem and we…I would say that, you know…it was so funny because in February, the Prototron became the first ever- it became international fund. So we are now working in Estonia and in Latvia.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Congratulations.

Jana Budkovskaja: And I was already, you know, stressed about this, all this logistics and how I will be coming and how we will organize and all this everything. You know, to be equally visible in Estonia and Latvia. And since crisis, I was visible behind the screen and everybody were absolutely happy! So now we think we go further this and we go further to Lithuania also, and I think we will not create some very solid offline events, we will be adjusting, so…we learned a lot and now we are really happy with the format and what we have developed and it’s very comfortable for us. So I’m…I have found the benefits from the crisis.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Perfect, perfect. Well I know that you are very- you have positive attitude towards life and towards business so I don’t think this COVID thing actually hurt you or made damage. I think that you just have some new ideas, probably have some new ideas.

Jana Budkovskaja: A lot. Unfortunately a lot.

Sanja Milosavljevic: No! Fortunately a lot!

Jana Budkovskaja: No, you know, every time when you have an idea and if you know how it should be done then you start to do it. And then again you are…ah, can I sleep? Can I just sleep and eat? So yeah, in this case…no but that’s everything. The complaining is one of the…I suppose it’s some kind of flirting, you know…

Sanja Milosavljevic: That’s interesting!

Jana Budkovskaja: When you’re just…mm, I’m so tired. Mm, I have so many projects. But no, no, everything is fine. Absolutely.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Perfect, perfect. So, can you tell us something about girls in tech in Estonia?

Jana Budkovskaja: Mm, my favorite topic, yes. So again if you come back to our education and our industrial region, especially in my region. It’s not any kind of…anything very special if the girls are going to study chemistry, physics, mathematics and so on. It’s common. It’s I suppose the same common when- as it was for like 50-60 years ago for US when computer wasn’t the computer machine, but it was the name of profession of those women who have been making math to send the satellites to the Earth- to the space, not Earth. So I suppose it’s something the same for us, but the problems are starting when you are- when you look into the career outlines. And the possibilities. Unfortunately until now in Estonia it’s not so many of…women who would be in the top management in the factories. We have some Ministers women, we have our President, she’s a woman, so we are very proud and happy about it, but…basically the whole society are talking you that…if you want- if you…that you should be like, you know, at home, family, blah blah blah and only then you should think about some other perspectives. And technology unfortunately or the management, it requires dedication, you know. If you want to achieve something in technology or in science…we can take the technology something like a science – you should be deeply involved in what are you doing, otherwise you cannot. I mean, it’s really immersive work. It’s not the work as in the shopping mall when you, you know, you come in, you have your hours, and you going and you just forget about everything that’s going…like, okay, in some case you can forget about it. But your work and the requirement of your- to be focused and dedicated is limited in time. So you can make your work and then you go home and then you work at home – dinner, supper, children, husband, la la la. But when you are making management, when you are in tech, when you are coding, when you are working with investments, unfortunately your time is not so…even not so limited, but- not limited, but…the dynamic of your time is different. And this is the problem that this is absolutely acceptable for men and it’s not acceptable for women. Okay, of course I have even personal stories about this non-acceptable that…last year I divorced from my husband because of my work. Because I was like…I was another way of working. And it doesn’t mean that woman…and also, you know, what also big limitation for women is…because you are living in the men’s world, this is the problem. That all the processes, everything is created for men. Even if you think about very easy stuff. For example, there is a statistic that if there is car accident, more women will die. The higher risk to women to die. Why? Very easy. Because every- all the safety equipment in the car are created by the mannequin who is the tall as a man, his proportion of the body is a man. And he is 80 kilos. Sorry, I’m a little bit more than 50 and if we hit, no any safety belt will save me because I have absolutely another momentum. And…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, I know, I know. It’s perfectly logical now when you said it, yeah.

Jana Budkovskaja: And it’s unfortunately it’s absolutely the same in every different spheres. So it’s really not any kind of feministic logic that you know “It’s men’s world”. No! It’s really! Because all the standards are by the men who is 80 kilos. Come, show me the…and you know this…I know that they are also- they are making the test now, like the recent years. They are making this mannequin 60 kilos, or 65-something like this. But the body is still men’s one. You know, we have in other places, we have all these parts, like…what we have is different… [laughter]

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, we have some difference… [laughter]

Jana Budkovskaja: We have some different part. Yeah. So you just can imagine this is this world. And if you just think and reflect it to other spheres then you can understand that it’s so…so when you for example breastfeeding. Okay in a story our hipsters and startups of course it’s another story already. And we have a rather good amount of female co-founders in startups. So it’s going very, very well now, and- in some cases. But in effect, in industries or in some traditional businesses, it’s…like…the requirements are not any- you cannot- you should always choose. You- are you- either you are at home, or you are at the work. And it’s not fair because we are absolutely accepting that men are having children and spend time with them and then they come in and they want to spend their time with their wives and then they come and, I don’t know, spend their time with their friends, and then they go to, I don’t know, some kind of work trips and so on. So we accept it, but we don’t accept it from the woman’s side. That it can also be somehow another way. So it’s basically it. And it all brings…it started from education and came to the management which is, as you understand for me is very painful. Because you know I always shoot points for myself when there is some kind of decision making that…but in education…and we have these specific fields where we have a lot of women. For example chemistry is very woman-based in Estonia. And again, if you think again historically. Those who have been working at least in chemical production in Estonia in oil shale for example, this operational workers, they have been also women. Why? Because it was very cheap labour. So, it was…for example, when you extract the oil shale, you get oil shale which you can use for oil shale production like electricity and so on, oil and tralala, and you have limestones. And you need- you should separate them. And always, this work, you can imagine – it’s stones. It’s…it’s no- it’s nothing…it’s just stones. They are heavy. And they were separated by hand by only women. It was very heavy and very cheap work. And no- no one man would like to do it. And for example if- so in the mining, in the oil shale minings, if the men, if man was for example drunk during the work, he was punished by working on this separation. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Aha. Working…I know. So that’s…that’s very sad and I hope that it’s going to change. So Jana, we actually came to the end of our conversation.

Jana Budkovskaja: Oh! It’s gonna be two! I just started!

Sanja Milosavljevic: I just thought- me too! I know, I know. Is there any message that you would like to share with people in Serbia and people in the world? I know throughout the conversation that education is the starting and ending point, but is there any other keyword, or is there any other message that you would like to share with us.

Jana Budkovskaja: As I assume there should be a majority of women who is listening to this podcast, or like…then I really would like to suggest that everybody to be so ambitious that you are a little bit ashamed about it. But, so this is- when you feel that you are a little bit ashamed…it’s okay. So this is this point, this is this point when you should feel yourself comfortable. And also you asked about the COVID and about this pandemic, and this is my main point for everyone in all of the teams and everywhere now that…we cannot think that we will be back. I don’t want to get 2019 back or 2018 back – never ever. Just challenge your crises and use them because they’re really the best teachers. You can- you can always find the education for yourself from every crisis. Like you cannot imagine – 2020, and it was a disaster. Divorce, and all this work load, big debts, you know when you are by yourself the person responsible for 1 million euro. Eeehh, it’s like, you know…it’s…sometimes it’s a little bit harsh you know to go to sleep like “Aah, what I gonna do”. But, at the same time all this crisis will teach you. And then you put your ambitions and you feel- you look at yourself in the mirror and said “Okay, I’m so beautiful that I’m a little bit ashamed, I’m so smart that I little bit ashamed of it, but just a little bit”. And I go further and I don’t want to have the yesterday because I have only today and much more better – I have the very best today. And tomorrow seems to be much better. So just go forward.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you, you shared very smart words and wisdom from your own experience. Thank you for your time, thank you for accepting to participate in this project. 

Jana Budkovskaja: With pleasure.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I wish you all the luck. And to start with new projects very soon.

Jana Budkovskaja: Thank you!

Sanja Milosavljevic: Dear people, we just spoke to Jana from Estonia, and thank you for staying with us. And if you want you can always find us on social media like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn and if you like it you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. So Jana, once again thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to see you, to talk to you and to really really absorb the wisdom you have.

Jana Budkovskaja: Oh thank you! So I hope to see you in Estonia very soon! As soon as possible!

Sanja Milosavljevic: As soon as possible. Ciao!