Sanja Milosavljevic: Good day, good people of the world, you are listening to and watching Mondopreneur podcast. This podcast is supported by the US embassy in Belgrade. The main goal of this podcast is to share stories of people and women who are running their own businesses, working in NGO sectors or universities and big corporations. The idea is to share how they are dealing with this new situation that is simultaneously happening to all of us all over the world. My today’s guest comes from Podgorica, the capital of Montenegro and her name is Milica. Milica has finished journalism and she’s at this moment working – remotely of course – for a company in Slovenia, but she will tell you more about herself in a minute. So, enjoy our conversation. Hi, Milica how are you?

Milica Scepanovic: Hi, I’m well, how are you?

Sanja Milosavljevic: I am fine. At this moment in Belgrade it’s -4 or -5, but the subjective feeling is -100 for me. So I really hope- and I don’t like winter and cold, so I really hope it’s warmer and better in Podgorica in Montenegro. 

Milica Scepanovic: Yeah, we never have a real winter here. We usually get a lot of rain during the winter days, but yeah. Ironically during the pandemic the weather is great during the last couple of days. All I’m doing is I’m looking out the window, that’s all I can do so far. But yeah, being at home for almost a year now you stop noticing the weather. I am also not a fan of winter, so I feel your pain. And I do remember winters in Belgrade because I lived there for a long time. But the good thing is, I definitely think I enjoy living in the place where there are all seasons because that became a kind of luxury in the last decade or so. So yeah, here in Montenegro all we get is a very long summer and then I think the rest is some kind of fall with a lot of rain, but at least the temperatures are mild. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah. I know. I would like to just come to Podgorica or to the seaside and spend the whole summer somewhere at the sea. So, can you tell us something about yourself? What is your educational background, how is your career path and your education connected to your job right now?

Milica Scepanovic: So I am currently working as a creative technical writer for a company as you mentioned based in Slovenia but that also has offices around the world. The company is actually developing or has a product of its own in the software industry, aimed for advertisement publishers. I started working for them last May, so basically right after the pandemic hit. So yeah, for the moment I’m based here in Podgorica and work remotely, but probably pretty soon I’ll move to Ljubljana. That’s the big plan. That was the plan when I was interviewed for the job and when I was reading about the job requirements. Because my work actually involves a lot of collaboration with engineers as a technical writer, I am writing about the product itself, so I am kind of curating the product that is used by the people who are actually using their platform. The company’s name is Celtra and actually they’ve been around for over a decade now and I like to mention this international aspect of the company because they do have offices around the world, but the clients are mostly based in the US or elsewhere. So that’s why I wanted to- it might be weird to some people who are listening and maybe asking why we are speaking English. But I need to mention this because from our email conversation I didn’t want to sound like a snob – we speak the same language, right? So for those who don’t know and who might listen and watch this – I am from Montenegro, you are from Serbia, we speak the same language and we understand each other very well. But for the purposes like this we will talk about, the job and all that, it might be easier. So yeah, this particular experience is within a company that is pretty big and that hires around 200 people, but my educational background and my previous experience comes from a more analogue world – I graduated in journalism as you mentioned over 10 years ago and I started- I only briefly worked as a journalist. I was- at the time I was in the US actually and for a couple of months I worked as a correspondent for the United Nations, I was covering the general assembly and all that, and that was fun but there was another option that came in that moment when I lived there and it involved marketing. So I thought as long as there’s something for me to write about, I’m fine. I can do whatever. I was in different organizations, I worked in Francophonie, which is the International Organization- you’ve probably heard about it. I worked on their representation in the US for a while, I also collaborated on a magazine that was issued by one of the correspondents for the UN society. I have then worked also weekly – and that experience was very dear for me – for a French tradeoff based in New York and for them we have actually worked on helping them import wines from the South of France. Which was not at that point a long time ago, I hope they’re well, but they were not super popular in the US because it’s a huge market. So that’s where I started leaning more towards marketing. And then I switched to another company in New York as well that was working with interior designers and suppliers from Italy and Belgium. And there I stayed for a little over a year and half. And I have Visa issues – that’s why I’m mentioning all these things because in the meantime I was also babysitting, I was teaching French. It was – all of that, I really enjoyed it. Because my idea when I went and joined my family in the US was just to go there and spend one year, learn the language and that’s it. So when I went to the US I’d just graduated from college and I was living my life in Belgrade and I loved it. I considered that my home. And things changed in the meantime and instead of staying for one year, I stayed in the US for four years. But because of these Visa issues – you might be aware of that probably and a lot of people listening and watching the podcast as well – the work Visa is never easy. It’s a huge process and because at that point that was not the first time for me to live abroad, I was a little bit- I headed off and I needed a break. And I decided to try and go back home and – looking at it, it was over six years ago – I really think right now that I made a great decision because everything that happened then led me to where I am today. Which is obviously not great because we’re still in the pandemic, but-

Sanja Milosavljevic: But it doesn’t matter, you can be- yeah, when you said that we are now in the pandemic, it would be the same whether you were in the States or in Cambodia or in Podgorica, so…

Milica Scepanovic: Yeah, yeah, but I meant more in the sense okay, plans change and especially – I’m going to talk about it later – I decided to switch jobs right before the pandemic struck. Or actually I got the offer right before it all happened, but who knows. In any case I’d actually recommend it to anyone – especially young people in their 20’s listening to this. If you ever get the chance to go somewhere outside your country and spend a year – go for it. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Do it.

Milica Scepanovic: And it’s hard to make a decision like that because we all like some kind of routine and kind of feeling secure and it’s tricky when you have to give up all that. I started early as a kid, moving around, so that was not something I had a choice in, I’d say. That’s why I might be engraved to make these decisions now that I’m older, but it helps. It helps me to leave and go seek another experience. But yeah, but even if you have the best of your life wherever you are, change is always good. So yeah, I mentioned all of these changes I had in the US, because of these issues and for me it was never a matter of I want to stay no matter what, I’ll be an illegal immigrant. We have a lot of those and I met a lot of those people and I felt for them each time whenever I heard their stories. It was painful to listen to their struggle. I felt- it’s not about being spoiled, I just want to have a life that is decent. In the sense I don’t want to worry that someone is going to arrest me because I am illegal. So that was never an option and I decided to go back home. Initially I left Montenegro when I was 4 and came back 25 years later. So I was at the moment when I moved back almost 30 years old. And it all seemed very challenging and also exotic in a way.

Sanja Milosavljevic: In what- sorry, in what way was it challenging to return home?

Milica Scepanovic: Well first of all, I do have relatives and family here. So that was the easy part because I knew I wouldn’t be totally alone. But it was challenging because I didn’t have any friends. As a kid I used to spend my summers here, visit grandpa and grandma and have a great time, but it is how it is. When you don’t grow up somewhere you don’t have that kind of connection. You don’t develop that, unless you’re involved in school or other activities. But I was- because of my previous experiences I wasn’t that afraid, it was more if I wanted to qualify the challenge experience, it was more of an expectation actually. Because I heard like ‘oh my god’, you know, people told me in the months before moving there ‘what are you going to do there?’. You know, you lived in New York and then you change and you come to Podgorica which is a very small town. But maybe that was the challenge in that moment that I wanted to prove something to myself but also I did- that’s why I mentioned my age- I did want that sense of belonging. I missed that in my life and I did feel that when I lived in Belgrade for a long time, it was my home. When I spent a lot of time in Poland as well – whenever my family would come back, Belgrade was my home. But I needed some kind of root. I was a guest everywhere, wherever I went. The good thing is those kinds of experiences teach you and prepare you to adapt well, but I also met people with similar experiences who would break at some point and I was afraid of that. So I really came here with the idea ‘this would be my home for the rest of my life’. I had the good will to do that, but I think there is a discovery in the new time that my drive has changed. And that’s good I think that when you come to your 30’s you start accepting everything about you that is also wrong as well as good. So I think it was luckily- I didn’t even have any doubt that I would find a job. I just followed my instinct. I started working within a month and a half. It was first with a PR agency that was involved a lot in real estate and they also had a lovely and still have this lovely magazine and I was writing for them so for me it was always important to stay connected to writing. I also simultaneously started working for my previous company which was a web design agency for interactive studio design here in Podgorica and that’s how I got into the digital world which was completely new to me and the funny thing was that the moment I started working for them I knew that this was where I want to stay. This was the industry where I wanted to stay.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Sorry to interrupt you, but can you explain why you did you see yourself in digital marketing – in that niche or that sector. What is so special about marketing and digital marketing?

Milica Scepanovic: Well yeah, about marketing – I think it’s- for me, it’s still an unexplored field, but when it comes to digital and everything that encompasses the content production or curation, that is something that in the digital landscape there seems there are no rules when it comes to content. And that was one side of it that I loved. Not necessarily maybe no rules, but just the liberty that you don’t have for example when you work as a journalist. You really need to- obviously every system has a set of rules, but here I discovered this and then it was I think as well the technology that made it loveable and also easy. It was- because I think we belong to this generation of people who have to transition. And I’ve seen that transition happen here in Montenegro. The situation that I saw here in 2014 when I came is different now. So you can see this progress I think a lot better than other places where it has been happening for decades now. So it was for me another drive to be part of that world which is developing here in Montenegro. Because the moment I joined my previous company, Montenegro- or actually, different businesses wouldn’t even consider hiring a local company for creating their website. Everything is outsourced. But then something happened, obviously not in 2014, but a few years back, maybe in 2010, where there was- something was created. The principle came either from outside or people in Montenegro who used to live abroad and who went to school abroad and they created this environment with their businesses where it became possible. And today in Podgorica only I think that they are- I don’t want to exaggerate, but for our context it’s a lot – but there are a dozen companies involved in software engineering. So it’s not just in digital marketing but generally in software. I think- those are the things- I love your question because I don’t think I’d ever given it a very good thought about what I really love about it, but all the things I mentioned make me feel like I belong in this world. And also one very important thing is that you always have something to learn. Because it’s ever changing. In that sense, when I look at my education which was very traditional especially for the Balkans as you may imagine. I was nowhere near ready to be a journalist because I didn’t do- I had a lot of colleagues who attended different internships or started early. I was still undecided whether I wanted to pursue that as a career and also a luxury that I didn’t have to work at the time when I was studying. I remember that from Belgrade that there were a lot of people who just had to earn their living while studying. That’s, I mean- all those things helped me figure out what I wanted and didn’t want to do. And I do believe that the decision that made me come back home has brought me to where I am today when it comes to my career because had I stayed in the United States where I had- because of my Visa issues had to change jobs every now and then, I don’t know if I would’ve ended up in the digital world and be able to develop a career there. So I’m grateful for that. And you know because- yeah, that’s really- especially if you don’t have a very straightforward education that puts you right there, you know? I’m not an engineer but I work with many people- many young people here in Montenegro who have either- who have studied their electrical engineering or mathematics and also- sorry, with those who have dropped out of college but decided to become developers. It is possible. So you don’t need a formal education as a programmer. You don’t. The same thing goes for designers. I’m traditional in that way, I do believe you need something- education is more like a foundation, but I think that college is a little bit overestimated because everything you learn before, should also be counted. So yeah it’s just a foundation and everything you do afterward is counted even more. So I think that for people who are involved in technology the learning never stops. Because the field is always growing. As a tool, it can help different fields and I’m always looking back and thinking ‘maybe I made a mistake’, I might’ve done differently with my Visa, maybe – I don’t know. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Who knows, yeah. So, can you tell us something about- first, I’d like if you could explain in just a few sentences what a creative technical writer is. Because for me when you say technical, it’s just something that is boring or something that is totally opposite from creative. So first can you just explain a bit what a creative technical writer is and then I would really like it if you could share your experience searching and finding jobs through LinkedIn. Because some people have started saying that LinkedIn is like Facebook for business people. I don’t agree, I think there is huge potential in LinkedIn but we just don’t know how to use it as a tool. So can you share something about those two topics?

Milica Scepanovic: Sure, I think you’re absolutely right. And I- when it comes to your point about qualifying my job the way you did and I think that- well, first of all the reason why I wanted to change my job. I need to give a backstory about that. It was simply because I felt it was the right moment for me to take the next step and become a part of the larger organization. So that was just one of the things that I considered at the time, but definitely the most important thing. And I thought that being able to join a bigger company would allow me to focus on my career. Because previously as a content editor, content writer, copywriter, I was working- I was just- at some point I lost myself because i Felt I was doing everything at the same time. Multitasking. And some people thrive on that, I’m not one of them. Even though my former boss who’s a very good friend of mine would disagree. I just knew that – if not now, then in a couple of years I’d just burn out. I wanted something that would give me more focus and that would make me proficient in just one field. Like okay, I know I can write, but there are many people who can write. Let’s be fair. But if you have an opportunity to use your talents and focus on one field and expand that, that gives you this competitive advantage that is always something that recruiters seek for. So yeah, when it comes to that job when I saw the posting – I’ll get to the LinkedIn part – I was also very attracted by the name of it. It seemed like something that was opposite – creative and technical. Because in my previous experience I had done some creative writing because I worked on product design with designers. We did some fun, funny stuff, it was really enjoyable. That’s what I loved about my job in the digital industry. But here, I knew that- and when I read the ad, it was amazing. Because I figured in that moment that I could find myself in all of these bullet points they listed. It’s because again it did give me some kind of niche, they offered some kind of niche, but also it was broad. So the job is – I’m in charge of maintaining and creating content for the support site. Which we as a company have because the product is so complex. It’s a centralized platform where you as a publisher or a marketeer or a brand you can use to produce and create beautiful ads and then also distribute them and traffic them to third party platforms. You do it all within this one system, you don’t have to hire an external agency or media outlet, you can do everything on your own. So for that product that is so complex, I have to produce together with my team, we have to work daily on a bunch of articles that are helping users navigate through that complex platform. And creativity comes in the moment where you have to think of different ways of making their user experience enjoyable and not just usable. In the sense that okay cool – the technical writer needs to produce instructions manually. But the creative part is where you get to experiment, but again I have to go back to those rules I mentioned that I didn’t enjoy at the beginning of my career in digital. But yeah, we- because especially I think when working for anything related to product design, you have to deliver uniformically. You need things to be consistent, both visually and also in the way you express yourself. So you have to be very detail-oriented in the sense that you know, take into consideration the terminology that you use. You have to- in the documentation that we prepare it has to reflect everything that the user needs in their platform. And basically if the support documentation is- that’s what the user experiences, people say – people who are either designers or content editors in charge of this experience – they say, you know, that the support documentation should just be accompanying already- the experience that is already good. Because you know, if you approach any new- if you buy a gadget, do you ever read the manual?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Actually I do! I’m sorry, I’m actually the kind of person that reads. 

Milica Scepanovic: But that’s- exactly, but that’s because of your own education. I know. But normal people don’t. You do it, I do it, but regular people. Like, I bought these headphones, it’s the first time for me to have these in the technology world for a decade almost now. It was- I opened it and I immediately wanted to figure it out on my own, but I never even thought about reading the manual. And not just technology, but anything that you buy. But it’s necessary because the moment something doesn’t work, it’s the only thing people have. So obviously I work at a large company so that means we’re not the only resource – we’re all users obviously. Because we have great technical support, we have people who work directly or in charge of certain clients. Let’s say we’re spoiling them and that’s also the beauty of it. They can always find a solution, be it the article I write or calling their customer manager. And yeah- there was- I mean, I’m not- I’m still exploring, this is a new role for me as well. Because I think this is something I haven’t seen in Montenegro. So when I joined my previous company, my former boss, he recognized the need – in that agency, he recognized the need many years ago for someone to be in charge of content. He knew that engineers can’t do it, designers can’t do it, so that opened the door for me in that sense and I’m forever grateful for that. Because it’s one of those where you have to fight, you have to pull yourself because you don’t necessarily belong in that environment, but then if you create as someone who owns a company an environment where you make people aware that these roles are important. I know that in Montenegro there are others, but I felt when I decided to leave my previous job that what I was looking for in that moment I couldn’t find here. But then again I also had the feeling that I worked for a great company, so great that I didn’t want to even consider others. It felt like a natural step to look for something we still don’t have here, but with all my previous experiences everything is temporary, so who knows. But I’m- I was again when I think about 6 years ago, 7 years ago, I’m so pleased that here in this country that is struggling like all the Balkan countries, we do have some success in the IT industry. Because at the time when I used to work for them, we had international clients. And that is something that you’re like okay, you can have- you can educate the local population and local companies and have them realize they need an assistant. A website, a mobile application, they need someone who knows how to do it. They don’t have to go elsewhere, they can reach for you there. And it’s a work in progress. You know, to raise that kind of awareness, it still is I think. But again, I’m very glad that it’s- it became a normal market demand. For jobs like that. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: So, can you share with us your experience in searching for jobs via LinkedIn? 

Milica Scepanovic: Yes, so I started the end of 2019 and I think I’d been at that time I was curious because I also have this feeling that LinkedIn was more like Facebook, social media where people were having fun and  connecting and not really using it for professional services and in Montenegro even less. But I was curious to check out if anyone was advertising for jobs on LinkedIn and I didn’t find anything. But I’d already made a decision to try elsewhere so yeah, I think that- I didn’t know at that moment where to start, so I went back to my analogue ways and I made a list of pros and cons. I had to decide- not just about- I wasn’t looking for a specific company, because I didn’t know, but I was looking for jobs related to content editing and writing. I had to decide about a location. The next thing was figuring out okay, if it was a job in the EU, it might be hard because of the Visa. But I decided that I wouldn’t worry about those things because I think at that point I gained enough confidence to think that okay, people are looking for good candidates and everything else in the meantime should be figured out. And that is the kind of confidence I was lacking when I was back in the United States. Because I knew if I wanted a company who would sponsor my Visa, I really had to be brilliant, or be a doctor or an engineer which I wasn’t. But here in this sense a very important thing when you start hunting for a job – if you’re doing it from the perspective of someone who already has a job and does not feel pressured to leave it. So I really felt like I had all the freedom in the world to just pick a place and start my search based on that. And that’s what I did. I was in Ljubljana that summer, 2019 and I loved it immediately. I loved the location, I loved the people, I loved everything about it. And that was my choice, that was like okay- because I wasn’t that determined to leave my country, I love it here with all the difficulties that life in the Balkans brings along obviously. But maybe I was in that moment – even though I am always driven by change – my place is like, if it’s a change, it has to be a drastic one. Not just changing a job, but changing the country. But I didn’t want to go too far so that seemed perfect. And also I wanted something where I actually didn’t know anyone. Because if I had- I lived in Poland, I lived in Switzerland, I was thinking okay maybe if I go to one of these places, at least I speak the language. It was just again an instinct that I followed. So yeah, my search was based on locations, I did filter out a couple of preferences I had, but then again I wanted also- I was suspicious. Like yeah, it’s probably not working, but I’d just check and browse a few times a week. But then as I went on I realized there are so many job postings every day. And just for a content writer, online content writer, there were thousands per week. Worldwide, we’re talking worldwide, not just Europe. And already then, before the pandemic had started, some jobs were remote. And I didn’t consider that, because I wanted- I’m old-fashioned and I wanted to be around people. I think you can only strive when you’re surrounded by people. And the- I think the difficulty was I became impatient in a sense, but also I realized as I went on in my search that this requires a full time commitment and I had a job in that moment. I needed to make a plan and that plan required a lot of sacrifice of free time. A lot of going out, coffees, meetups. No, every day I’d come back from my work and the rest of the evening I’d dedicate to searching for jobs online. Not just LinkedIn, I went on Glass Door, another platform. And then what happened during the weekends I would send my application. ANd I think during the course of three months, I’d send around 120 of those. And what might be useful to people who are right now suspicious as I was when I started. I heard back- or actually went on further on the interviewing process for about a dozen. So like 10%. I have a friend who sent around 250, but he didn’t have a job when he was searching. So I was like yeah, this was the pace I would do. And then you’d usually get an automated reply. I know that doesn’t sound very motivating, you feel like you’re always on hold. And you can, after several weeks, you can distinct when there’s a real person, an HR that responds to your email application. This is what happened for me, for these companies that invited me for the interview – the 1st, 2nd and even before I had one for a company in Brussels. I went to a third call, third interview and then they picked up someone else. And in most of these cases the issue was Visa. Because for a number of companies I applied for that are based in Poland which was – I spent eight years of my life there and it really felt like a home for me when I was a kid, I loved it, it was always a choice to go there. But they were very strict. And they- again, there was probably somebody that judged based on my first email or application that for some reason I’m not a fit and that’s fine. But I’d appreciate it a lot when there was a real person who said okay, are you free to hop on a call in three days. So here at this pace when I read as I mentioned before that advertisement for my current job, there was even something about voice overs that I used to do as well, but I didn’t get to that part yet. That was again this instinct telling me, okay I’m gonna apply for that. Because I feel that all the requirements that they asked are doable. But what happened as it usually does – I had my first online interview, then my second one and then we got into the holiday season and I heard from them. I got- I was in the test task to perform a test and write an article about the feature. And I didn’t hear from them for about two weeks and I was already signing it off and was desperate. But all the time I really had a good feeling about it because chatting with the HR and my current colleagues was very- I felt relaxed. And that’s what II loved throughout that process. But I’ll be very honest, I think that’s because I had a job. So I didn’t have anything to lose. And that helps me a lot. So being in a position where you have it and you can- I was like- you’re always on your phone. I was so proficient with LinkedIn in that moment that I was sending applications left and right without even reading it – just for fun. I was expecting to hear back from maybe five companies that I researched and that I was hoping that something might happen, and the rest I didn’t even care. So after I got the offer because the process went for a long time, because of the pandemic and all that, and in the end what I really think is important is that whole experience. It was the first time in my life for me to apply for a job online. And usually what happened before was – you either send an email, you’re recommended by someone and then you get an invitation for an interview which in my case luckily turned out well. But here, I was completely anonymous. And I was so proud of myself when I got that- got to that last stage of the interview where they invited me to Ljubljana to come meet with them. And I knew once I got to that stage, that’s it. Because that’s where they meet me and I’m definitely gonna convince them that I’m going- that I can do it in person better than like this. And I think the whole point of having the job at the time again really helped me be relaxed in that interview and later. So I think going back to LinkedIn, I think it’s ever-evolving. Even now, I’m encouraging my friends to do this. Because it’s worth it, but you have to really commit to it. Not just today or tomorrow and then you’ll come back in a few months. No, you really have to do everything – edit your profile on LinkedIn, update your CV, you need- you should keep it like- at least this is from someone involved in writing, but I think you should keep your CV or resume very concise. Don’t write an essay. Then also have 2-3 versions of a motivation letter that you can also submit because that helps. Especially if you’re applying for a job like mine. People want to see okay, if you can’t write a letter like that, why are you even applying for a writer. But I think with what’s happening especially now in the pandemic that the job search market has completely switched online. I don’t think it was different for the rest of the world even before. LinkedIn has really evolved in that sense that they really offer great opportunities for sure. Another advice I just thought of is that if you search for a job on LinkedIn, you might want to research that company and go on their website. Because those websites are updated and their job postings. And here you might spend who knows how much time applying and it turns out it expired. You know, it becomes- it became for me because at one point it was three months I was doing that, it became a daily routine. So, and then responding to- I even responded to some of those automated emails that said please don’t respond to this. Nevertheless I sent ‘thank you’ – that takes time too. But going back now, thinking about working remotely, I already- I basically finished my old job for Friday and started my new job on Monday. So I only had a weekend. I didn’t have a break. I was actually hoping, maybe they won’t call me right away, maybe they’d give me a week so I can have some rest. But at that point when I started in May, I’d already worked remotely for two months, so it wasn’t that hard. What was hard was that here I was working for and with people, most of whom I’d never met. I’d only met my immediate colleague and manager, I met them when I was in Ljubljana for my interview. That is difficult in a way, but also it is good when you think from our very Balkan perspective because I think these kinds of relationships that are based only on online communication allow you to establish a very professional connection with those people. But I’m still hoping because the office we have in Ljubljana is really big, all the developers are there. So it’s about 100 people. And I’m hoping it would reopen at some point because I was hopeful that if I go there, that would be like going back to normal life, to the office. Because otherwise like, okay Ljubljana is cute, but I want that- I wanna go back to that routine where I don’t talk to you or anyone over Zoom. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: I know, we all do. Thank you, Milica, thank you a lot.

Milica Scepanovic: I hope that this was useful at least for someone.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Don’t worry you shared some very important thoughts and your experience in searching for online jobs. I know it’s Friday night and if it was a normal time, we would go out sometime. But you can organize a Friday night at your home, so thank you once again. Good people of the world, you were listening to and watching Milica Scepanovic from Podgorica, Montenegro. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. If you like, you can always follow us on Facebook and Instagram, LinkedIn and you can always subscribe to our YouTube channel. So stay good, stay in good health and see you next week.