Sanja Milosavljevic: Good people of the world, you are watching Mondopreneur podcast. My name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I’m going to be your host today. This whole project is supported by the US embassy in Belgrade, Serbia. We are trying to share stories from successful women from all over the world because we find it’s very important to hear different stories, different views and different perspectives in order to decrease the noise we are all listening to from the media. I hope you’re going to enjoy our conversation today. Today, my guest is a dear friend of my. She comes from Taiwan and her name is Shan. Hi, Shan – how are you?

Shan Luo: Hi Sanja and yeah, I’m good and thanks for your time and thanks for giving me this opportunity.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, as I said in the introduction I think it’s very important for all of us to hear different perspectives, different voices in order to make the right choice or the right decision. So, can you tell us something about yourself? What is your educational background, how is it important for your today’s work and maybe some of your future plans.

Shan Luo: Right, so okay thanks. So, I’m from Taiwan and not Thailand, sometimes people would get confused about that. So our capital is Taipei and I’m actually from Taipei. I’m now in Taipei and myself, I grew up here and I work here, however I do have about three years time stay in Britain and I studied and also worked there for a while. And then when I moved back, I think it does give me some- a different, open up different window for me. And also made me feel that there’s some different value, that the sense of value of viewpoints or how you judge things from different angle or how you do things from different approach. So I think that’s quite important for me to open up my own international view and perspective. So that’s why I think that international distinction is quite important for- because we are a small island so I think it’s pretty important for individuals like us and for everyone, I think, to open our eyes. So for myself I would say to learn from different experience it’s more important to have different good results from others’ eyes. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: So you studied business, economy, insurance, finance – what’s your educational background?

Shan Luo: Oh right, sorry I missed that part. My undergrad is Business School – Insurance. And I got my M.A. from the University of Birmingham. That is in International Economic Management.  So it relates to international affairs and also economy and also management. So you can tell I like to have different- I like to explore different things and I also like to mix up a lot of different things. (laughter)

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well that’s good, that’s perfect!

Shan Luo: (laughter) I think it makes my life more interesting. Yeah, so and also it makes me feel more enthusiastic. Because a lot of things are mean for everyday on everyday basis. Sometimes in our culture you need to be really really hurt when you study. And once you get your degree your school from your university and then you get into your work and career, then that is a different life. And in that kind of life people stop studying, people stop learning. But I have different viewpoint. Actually I believe it’s a very lifelong process, learning. And also it’s a lifelong personal and individual development. So I’d rather just have to enjoy my learning and exploration and also that would inspire me a lot. I wouldn’t just stick on or be worried about the short- term goals or results. So it’s my own philosophy.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I like your own philosophy. We spoke on several occasions and I find them very useful. Sometimes I think Shan is my mentor. 

Shan Luo: Oh, no!

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, yeah, yeah because you have those wise- you know how to say one wise sentence that brings everything together. So can you share with us where is your or what is your current stage of professional development? Can you tell- you’re working for fintech. You are in financial technology sector. So what is the current stage of your professional development?

Shan Luo: Alright. My own professional path is not very ordinary. Just as you say I’m working in fintech sector, so that is a kind of busywork for now. A lot of people have heard of fintech. But fintech is not a very new industry of knowledge – it’s more like a mindset that makes up with financial and digital innovation. However the financial is more about the highly regulated industry and also that is a very consumer-facing industry. So it relates to everyone’s daily life and it has to be very safe and sound. But fintech is trying to explore the innovation digitally in this time of a very transitional, ordinary industry. So we need to find a more innovative approach as well. So that’s why I think it’s quite interesting. If you ask me even though I have my academic background with financial knowledge. However, I’m working with government in ICT industry. So my organization is called triple I – Institute for Information Industry. And my organization actually is working on how to help the whole different industry to do their digital transformation. So in the past I worked for this organization for 15 years and my first five years is working with startups. My other five years is working with other large firms to do their digital strategies. And this is my third 5-years and my third 5-years is to mix up those both. To help the startup in financial industry and also to have the financial organization and institute to transfer their business in digital economy. So I find that very interesting so my 15 years here is trying to accumulate my knowledge and experience and know-how in innovation. And also digital innovation. And then I had to put all my capabilities into fintech. So that’s more my career. And I always say to build up the ecosystem – the innovation ecosystem – is my love. I really love that.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Can you- sorry Shan, can you share more details? What is digital innovation? What would that be?

Shan Luo: Alright. So, for example we need to help the kind of noble advisor, or how you leverage smart recommendations for your- how to put it? Your marketing in digital pro form. And also how to use your contactless payment for your transactions. And also how to build up your own credit. You can have different credit score – how people can just rank you in your financial- based on your financial record. So those are- we have a traditional approach for a long time, but now we try to also introduce or bring in the more innovative approach. For example like you can use your buying or your shopping transaction for your own credit data. So if I can buy a lot of things, that means I can afford a lot of outcome. I can pay a lot of money and that also means I have some money in hands. So that is another way to prove that I am capable of my income or my cash-flow. So not only the money in your bank account but also your behavior and your transactions can also define your financial credit score. And that is also another way to look at different persons. Also I can give you another example – in Taiwan we call “little white” is the university students. They cannot have their own credit card. So they can only pay with cash. But because- that also means they cannot pre-pay or they cannot spend too much money if they don’t have their saving. So if they want to have an iPhone, a new iPhone, that means they have to borrow from someone, right? But then they need their credit score. So they can surrogate from a peer to peer lending platform, however they still need to have their track record. Their historical data with their transaction with different maybe e-commerce platform. So that’s another way to have your own credit score. As is for everyone – for everywhere, everyone will always need this. So that is something- the beauty of fintech. One of the beauties of fintech. And the other one will be we say that financial inclusion. So for example that in the past you can only- in a lot of places you can only wire your money with bank, but like in Britain or in Europe you can wire your money transfer wires. And why you need to go with them? Because they’re lower exchange rate and lower transaction charge. So that is why you prefer fintech solution to transitional financial solution. But it’s complicated. However, this one thing is very important is that we need to be responsible. Every innovation needs to be responsible for two things. One is how they conduct their consumers’ data. Since they have a lot of your financial transaction data that makes it very sensitive, so how they conduct with that. How they conduct with your personal data, your privacy. So how they do their data governance. So how they protect their customers – that’s the easier way to understand. And the other part is – how they make every transaction genuine. So if there is any fraud – how they detect that. So they need to have a better cyber-security solution and they also need to have very good customer due diligence. So they need to know whether someone just steal your customer’s account and pay money to someone who’s not your customers at their will. So it’s quite important to have your authentication. We call KYC – know your customer. And also know how you can help and assist your customer still be safe on your platform, in your service. So that’s quite important, being responsible is quite important for innovation.

Sanja Milosavljevic: And how is your- how are your policy-makers or I don’t know – your government-

Shan Luo: Oh, the regulator.

Sanja Milosavljevic: The regulator, how are they dealing with cyber-security and how are they trying to implement the cyber-security. Because as you said it’s very sensitive, it’s extremely sensitive.

Shan Luo: It is very sensitive – it’s sensitive to everyone. However, I always say since financial innovation is everywhere now, the financial is also the very service that everyone needs right. So every innovation where you implement to our markets, they need to be very, very careful. So we need to have a lot of checkups. For example your compliance checkup, your legal checkup and whether you comply with regulations. And second if your system is safe. And so the regulation of course that would be still has to have the right credentials. They need to be careful with those risks. So risk-management and risk-evaluation become the key things. So whether we can understand what we are facing. So myself, I also learned that from my own job. I learned we cannot just say we need to- we cannot just say out loud about innovation. This innovation we’re how and what we’re impacting in our market and our customer and how we conduct with that and how we manage with the risk and to help the market and the customer are in good hands. So that’s quite important. So the regulator needs to also be balanced out the innovation and the risk management. So more importantly, right, they are highly regulated – so innovation for a highly regulated industry it’s a really difficult- it’s a fireball. So it’s really hard and tough. So that’s why we as an innovation hub we start with the startup ecosystem and then we find out we have to have them regulated too. So out one problem and one question is how they can understand different innovation and its impact. It’s a learning curve. So it’s also a learning process. So we learn also that with our content price and so for that we try to also understand what in their innovator’s mind and what in the regulator’s mind. So more importantly when you discuss in communication with someone else, you need to put yourself in their shoes. Really put yourself in their viewpoints. Not just to understand their question with your own perspective – that would make everything very difficult to move forward. So we build up a platform. The platform invites everyone in and to have open discussion and also more importantly for us is to be the interpreter. To- Chinese to Chinese still needs an interpreter. Because different industries speak a different language. They have different understandings of the risk. So maybe I think just to open up my account is not so big deal, but for financial industry that is the extremely crazy risky move. So that is something that you need to understand. Why they feel that’s important because every financial account relates to the very sensitive data and also their actual money. So it’s not like your social media account, it’s very different. If you’re trying to put apples and oranges, you still need to ask the orange to speak to apple. (laughter) And also how the apple to understand why orange is saying so. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: And why the orange is orange.

Shan Luo: Exactly!

Sanja Milosavljevic: So in the context of Covid and in the context of Coronavirus, how important are those fintech innovations? Like we are now all living online, we are all buying online, all of our data is served on a plate-

Shan Luo: Everywhere!

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah. So how is it important in the context of Covid?

Shan Luo: Covid-19, I just find that’s something so unbelievable. In the beginning of this year, this should be end by maybe the end of the month. And then we believed it will be ended by the sixth month. And now we have- until now we found that another wave has happened and also will affect a lot in our daily lives. So in our situation, we also try to do something to help. Not only to help with Covid itself – we cannot do much because we’re the financial industry. But what we can do is we need to have everyone when they stay at home that they can still transact their shopping transactions – they can still make the transaction well. And also they can have every money wire well and also they can also apply every financial service well. But they always relate to data sharing. So you may need to share your financial data – the bank, they may need the data with non-bank bodies. So this means I might need to share my data with e-commerce platform, or I might need to share the data with housecare. So I may need to share the data with something that’s not as highly regulated industry as myself. So we try to also help and be the think-tank for the regulators. And we are working on the digital infrastructure to deal with the- all the different levels of data-sharing. So we call that proportional regulation. Because if I need to understand whether this customer from my e-commerce shopping site, they want to buy something, I want to know if they still have enough money in their bank account. So I just need to send a question to the bank, I just need to ask if they have this 500 for example. And the bank can give you a number 800, 300 – then you can judge. Or they can give me yes or no. So this kind of data is not sensitive at all. However, if I need to help my customer to manage their monthly shopping, I might need to analyze their account, their spending. I will require a lot of their transaction data – I might need a full list of their financial account. So someone can hold all my financial data and that means they know me like my bank. They know me well. So that has to have the highest level of cyber-security and privacy protection. So that’s what we call proportional regulation. You don’t regulate different types of businesses and services by the same standards. You have to have different standards to govern different levels of service that- in terms of their sensitivity of their data. So that is something we think is quite important. And I also need to say – I am a learner. So I learn that from things that are getting punished in the industry. I was in the very left-wing, I was from very innovation, this kind of digital web innovation, this totally blue ocean. And now I go to the very safe and sound and stable industry that’s highly regulated. It’s a really big learning curve for me, but in a way I really enjoy this kind of learning because I open up and also I feel more secure in a way that I learn different things. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Really? 

Shan Luo: Yes, because-

Sanja Milosavljevic: How come? Sorry, do you- sorry to interrupt, but you are aware all these frauds and all these security problems that can come. Are you- do you buy online? Do you leave your footprint everywhere?

Shan Luo: Yes.

Sanja Milosavljevic: You are comfortable with that?

Shan Luo: Totally. Okay, that’s one thing. Because I work on and I’m working with those kind of web companies for 15 years so I totally understand and also I have the experience of being called to the police station saying that someone has stolen my account and doing a fraud. So I need to have my own evidence or elements, right? So for that I have the experience of the digital fraud – how bad or severe the digital fraud really is. However, I think it’s inevitable. So if you know something is inevitable, the most important thing is not to bury yourself in the sand. You need to face it and you need to manage it. So my way to manage that is that I have my career side, my job and my work information on the social side. And I also have my public information on my social media. But I will leave out my family parts like my kids – especially my kids. Part of the reason is that I think they are too young. I can’t make this kind of decision for them to expose their data in a very open environment. So I think that I will relay to them if one they they get adult and they make their own choice and that’s their own choice – I won’t do that. But I will have my own information that I want to share with my friends or want to share with my colleagues and my partners, my international friends, right? I think that’s a very important communications platform. So you need to know how you can deal with different social media platforms. And on the other hand, I also shop a lot – very much, because I am very busy, so I shop really a lot and I’m frequently online. But I did not stop because my family they know I have the experience with going to the police station to be- to testify. But I say I need to- I still need to shop online because it’s my lifestyle I can’t avoid that part. However, there’s my technique- I don’t know if I can call it a technique. I have different bank credit cards – different banks, their credit cards they have different protection for their credit card owners. So you can test it with your bank. So I used a credit card that they can cover the loss and they can cover me, most. Which means if there’s any transaction I feel suspicious, I call and I have a very satisfying response and I will trust that card, that bank to use that online. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: I know, I do something similar. Like I have a credit card I use only for online shopping and it’s with a limited amount of money that I need for that shopping. So I do the same, I use my other cards on some other places. Before we start a new part of conversation, can you please tell us something about what is your government doing in terms of helping small-scale businesses or entrepreneurs to overcome this pandemic or this crisis of shutting down businesses?

Shan Luo: Right, right. So what we actually use, we have different- you know, for startups you have different types, and also they have different maturity levels. Let me just say for the maturity level wise we have very early stage and the ones in the growth and the ones that are sustainable. For the ones in early stage we have different government projects to help them to promote to develop. So this kind of startup ecosystem still needs to build up. So we have different project, like fintech one kind of project for the vertical. And we also have projects for women startups and we also have projects for agriculture and culture innovation – those are artistic ones. So we have different types for early stage. Then they have their ecosystem, they have their resource, they have their mentorship and also they can apply for government grants. And then we- when you are going to grow up your business, your business grows and then comes investment. You will need more money for your business, so we have a National Development Fund. Normally it’s a matching fund. You can have- they still have different scales- different size of investment. For example, if you are asking for 100.000usd you have one investor who would like to invest those 100.000usd then our NDF will also matching the funds – another 100.000 will go to your business. They call it equal, so it’s a matching fund. They’re trying to encourage the investors to invest in the businesses they believe in and the government will also put the money in to kind of spread the possibility. So that’s quite important for that because with the stamp of the NDF, this company can have more confidence when speaking to other investors or their business opponents. So this is quite important. So that is for the 100.000 but we still have other larger-scale of the investment from the NDF, but it’s not- the 100.000 we call is a “green pass”. You don’t need to have a screen board. So as long as you find someone and you apply, they just screen that very fast. But if you’re asking for a million USD, then you may need to go to the review form, but they will still give you NDF funding. So that is quite important for those startups. Because the investors sometimes they don’t have their own confidence in a way. Because not every business understands every sector or every domain. So they believe that if the government funded them backup they can be more confident. So that is kind of a positive effect of this investment. However I still need to say, in our fintech ecosystem it’s not so easy. One of the reasons is that not everyone understands what fintech really is and which opportunity would work. So normally we going into companies barely can put money into fintech and one of the reasons is because they cannot understand the market. And that’s why sometimes if they were made some people really have interest in this ecosystem and to be one of  the experts they can have the confidence to persuade and to get or to convince their limited company to put money into that case. So we are working on next year to have this kind of industry, the fintech industry fund to have the ability to come from different financial organizations because that will be for the whole industry good. Also we think that we also have the small medium financial organization can have more lease generation. Because normally they can get one or two fintech solutions for ones they can put the money in and they have the opportunity and chance to see more fintech solutions. And so it’s like they outsource their procurement department, yeah so they have some- we are like dispenser for them to look for different fintech solutions. So I think that’s another positive circle for the industry. We also speak to the regulator so they also kind of support this idea. So it’s- for the highly regulated industry, it’s highly important to get support from the government. So the startups are I think not only for fintech but for every kind of startup it’s not so easy. But for the heavy regulated it’s even harder. Because it’s about the regulation and it’s also about the money, they need to understand the market. So the regulation and the money is the two key things for startups. And for us I think we have tried to- because we found that the Covid-19 has affected a lot of international markets, especially the investment market so we found a lot of investors, especially larger investors, the global larger investors they might kind of have stopped. Pending, they just pend their deal I think for a while already. So we can’t forsee next year will get better because we haven’t got better solutions for Covid-19, so we just need better solutions for how to deal with it domestically.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I know, I understand. So, can you tell us something about your life and working experience and how you balance your personal life, your private life and your work? And please share some of the wise words you usually share with us when we’re visiting. I know, I remember once in our previous conversation you said something that I find quite phenomenal. You said we don’t have to be afraid of robots, of artificial intelligence – we have to adjust our education system. Because even though you are educated to be a programmer, you are still just a doer because you’re only typing strings of code, you’re not inventing anything. You’re basically like in the 19th century like a worker in a factory, you are now doer in a- you are typing these things in a computer. So can you tell us something about your life and work experience, and how do you see the labor market for the future.

Shan Luo: For your- recalling…because I was thinking. Yes, speaking of my own experience, I think that the sample I make before is my sister. Because my sister is the elite, she is a university professor. But she is in the political science. So one day she ask me whether she should have her kid- who is going to get into in junior high, but has to have senior high picked out – so she asked if he should be in computer science and if he should take some computer science. So this is my theory – a lot of people say that computer language is quite important or computer science will be the next generation, the star of the next generation. But my experience actually in the ICD – I need to say that before, I am not an engineer, I’m business school background. But I have been 15 years in the information industry, so I am kind of outsider into a core of the information industry development because you are trying to help the innovation in the information industry. (laughter) So we need to also understand that it’s the data – everyone is saying that data will be the next gold and I believe that and also say the same thing. But I will say if you are the miner, the data-miner, if you are the worker, you’ll always be the worker. So it’s not about how you make the code. How you develop the code. If you just want yourself to be a developer, your job will still affect your worker type. If you are thinking something like you know the father of Alibaba, he say he himself is also not engineer background, but he thinks that you need to have the mindset in the very digital approach. So this means you must think how you can leverage those data leverage by different use. That is something you can decide. You can make the decision, but you don’t need to put your hand on that. So you need to ask yourself whether you like to be the developer, the computer developer. Some people I met they are the engineer- they are the hardcore engineer, so they love coding. So that’s their love and I totally appreciate that and I also encourage them to do even more application to develop more application of software for themselves, that will be their achievement. But for different people, you don’t need to worry too much whether you need coding or whether you need to have an engineer background. However I will say engineers can earn more money than a social studies student. But I think for a social study student because many times I’ve been invited to the social science school and I will always tell them you need to understand about the technology and which technology will do what. Then you need to know to design that, because you need to have your business mind. So more important to help yourself to think. I remember I told you once, I not only told my colleagues and my teammate, I said you need to ask yourself at least three layers why. When you find someone is doing this, you ask why do they do this. And after you know why they do this, then why that. Because there will be an answer for your question, but why that answer? You need to ask that back. So ask those three layers of questions for the answer. So you have – that’s an exercise to talk to your staff why and why and why. Then you will learn to think. And also I have often done something which is every day when I have my own free time. Because I am a mother of two and I have busy work so I don’t have much free time, but I will still use 5 minutes, 10 minutes here and there – I will ask one thing is more…I would quickly go through the whole day activity and review if there’s any which part where there’s something that I do nothing too much. Because sometimes we are so used to saying oh yes or oh no based on our past experience. That is a quick answer and also is quick thinking. But sometimes those quick thinking might just – this kind of answer might be based on your previous experience and not your current situation. So I’m normally when we ask whether I do put every single factor into consideration, yeah. And also I will also try to recall something happened very similar in six months or two years ago. And to review at the time what I was thinking and also go back to what I am thinking right now, so to see whether I have changed. I think to find yourself, I think there’s something to always being the leader for myself. I always encourage myself, I need to – otherwise my job is so tough. So every time I find myself improved, like “oh, I do better!”, normally I be- some people say you need to love yourself, but I think a way to love yourself is to be proud of yourself. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Hm, that’s interesting! That’s why I said Shan is my mentor. You always say super smart things in one sentence. So, cheer for yourself and be proud of yourself, is that right?

Shan Luo: Yeah, be proud of- not be proud of everything you do, that would be blind. But be proud of something that you really find from the bottom of yourself that yes, I corrected my missed behavior, I changed to be a better person. That would be a smart thing. For example when I’m at work, I know with my colleagues I do very micro-management because I cannot have any error. But sometimes I’ll say I will help myself now. When I help myself I will say “okay, let’s try that”. Even though I don’t know in my mind how it will turn out. But I will try to help myself and I will turn around and back home I will tell my husband I’m so proud of myself. I did not say no to my colleague. So I think it’s quite important to look at what you are doing like another person looking at yourself, your behavior. Because you know yourself but you also know you’re trying to change something about yourself. So for that. And also sometimes for example I say sorry to my kids. I say sorry to someone maybe who’s junior to me. It needs courage, actually, it needs courage. But I think it’s quite an important practice to say sorry that you think normally you don’t need to say. Yeah, so when you say that and being sincere, you’ll also be very proud of yourself because you have that courage, you are brave. There’s something, I think, that is the part you need to be proud of yourself. And when you’re proud of yourself of course you’ll love yourself. Because you will think “that is a great person”, that you deserve this. You don’t need to negotiate or you don’t need to restrain or you don’t need to blend yourself too much. You don’t need to be very neutral about what you are doing. So the neutral is about- you want to blend – not only because women like to blend ourselves for a lot of things, right?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, it’s a culture.

Shan Luo: Yeah so you need to be frank. Some parts that is our bad or our fault, but some part it won’t be. So we need to look very closely and frankly which part is our bad and which part is someone else’s. And you analyze that and be very rational and discuss with your friends or your colleagues or your husband. I think that can be a very reasonable discussion, not to shout or to fight. That’s my own money.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So we actually came to the end of our conversation, so can you share a message? What will be your message to the world?

Shan Luo: Alright, so let me think. I just have- okay, I just tried earlier, before this meeting I actually had my campaign. I need to stand up, stand out for my team to win our organization the best team. So I need to present. The end of my- ending of my presentation I said “We are the smallest team that triggered the biggest transformation”. That is something I think in the past even myself I don’t believe individual can make a big change or big transformation because we are thinking we are small. Yes, we are small but if you have your belief and you share your belief with people and they support you, then you are moving one step ahead already. And also try to challenge your own belief, make your belief stronger and then you can make the biggest transformation.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you, Shan. Thank you.

Shan Luo: Thank you so much, it’s always nice to talk to you.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes always, always. I really enjoy talking to you – you always start some new topic or you trigger some new way of thinking so thank you, thank you for your time, I really appreciate it. Dear people, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. This was Shan from Taiwan and if you like you can always follow us on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. Stay good, stay in good health and see you in a week.