Sanja Milosavljevic: Hello, my name is Sanja Milosavljevic and I’m going to be your host today. Today, my guest is Agnieszka Pugacewicz and she comes from Poland. She’s a university teacher and I hope that you’re going to enjoy our conversation. So, Agnieszka hi, hello, how are you?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Hi, I’m good, how are you?

Sanja Milosavljevic: I’m fine and I’m actually quite satisfied because you agreed to participate in this project. I asked you, you were among the first persons I asked to participate in this podcast and I’m so glad that we finally found time to do this. Because you are very interesting as a person, but also what you do is also very interesting. So, can you tell us something about yourself? What do you do, what is your educational background and how- you are not an entrepreneur but how are you connected to entrepreneurship.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Thanks for having me in your podcast this is a very novel and interesting idea. About myself, I’m not a normal academic I would say. I am something between academia business and administration, or NGO’s the third sector. So I’m balancing in between having some teaching at a university but also doing research for applications. For something that is needed in work outside academia. So I prefer practicality over theory. In this sense, ten years ago I also opened my small consulting company to develop changes within academia because I feel we still behave in an old-school way. So my entrepreneurial approach was related to changes within the academic system. So I joined the very innovative I think center at the university that is called Digital Economy Lab where we assess the impact of technologies on society and community but also allow entrepreneurship within academia. It was five years ago and now already we have an incubator within the university which is a new thing and it’s very popular among students, among PhD students and also some researchers as well. And we also accelerated spinoffs in the companies that base an IP developed in their academia and starting from three of them now we have around 20, not only in hard science but also in social economy and commodities topic scenarios. So basically I’m always looking for new opportunities in this sense. I’m an entrepreneurial academic, maybe?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, maybe you can call it like that. For me it’s very interesting to hear this, everything you said, because in Serbia we have those techno parks and something is happening but I still feel we lack the connection between business administration, innovative ideas, copyright, tech startups, whatever kind of startups. There is nothing that connects those dots. And if I want to develop a business maybe I have a business background but I’m not an engineer and I need an engineer to help me develop my business. Can you tell us something more? You said, you mentioned that there are startups that are not just in tech but also in social and humanities. Can you tell us something more about that and can you give us an example?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Actually they are a little bit connected with technology. They are not from hard sciences like biology, chemistry or physics. But they represent for example journalism and the research for trends in media and texts and text databases. So they use data science to retrieve information from various sources available from the internet, from various publications and they retrieve it from huge amounts of texts. So this is the startup. Another one is more for educational purposes. They are PhD students who opened this company to teach practical contact for geography and geology. They go outside, they visit various forms of stones in various areas of Poland and the children learn on the spot, they touch the things and they just have this learning journey with this startup. They commercialized their geographical knowledge in a sense. But most of the spin offs are generally from biology and physics – they just license the knowledge and they help develop new drugs, new solutions for medicine and this is what is the most valuable in terms of university income and researchers’ income. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well it’s because it’s- you can easily scale up those kinds of startups. They can scale up. Plus they also develop a product that is needed on the market. Can you tell us what education is for you? When you say education, what do you mean?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Education is something that you learn every day, that you have every day around you. Whenever you do anything, you learn all the time. And either it could be through a formal way – you go to school and you learn remotely from your school and university, or it could be informal in the sense that this is not an educational system but someone who advises you about something, does the training. Or you learn by doing. So you don’t even know that you’re learning. And that third way is I think the best way. Because it’s the easiest, you’ll remember a lot from this and it is even confirmed by scientific research that you remember the most when you do a simulation or perform the work. So I prefer these active forms of education and I try as much as possible whenever I teach students – because I teach entrepreneurship – I try to ask them to experiment with everything we learn. And just to put a little bit of theory and then confront it with the real world. And even bring the opinion that no, this theory doesn’t work and it’s something else in the real world. Because usually economic theories are just a small part of the real world and the parameters that affect the system are numerous. So you never know if your theory would work in a real setting. That’s the education that I got from my economics career and I try to apply this approach with an open heart, open mind. Especially as nowadays the information is available through the internet. Of course we need to critically approach it and verify the validity and reality of the information, but also what you learn from is other people. It’s cooperation with other people is joining with teams and you don’t need to be a knowledgeable person as long as you keep contact with others. Because you learn a lot from them and exchange information and learn something new. And for example I think that education is something nowadays that we need to sell as a product. As you do for example in your business. Because there are a lot of for example YouTube presenters that teach students or pupils at school and in order to offer something more you need to prepare a value proposition when you teach. So something that is not available on the internet, something that is brought up out of your experience, expertise, but something unique, something more. You need to sell the knowledge in a new way, to connect some information to ask the students to apply this knowledge and this is it, this is the new way of learning nowadays. This is my opinion. It’s a very competitive world now and the teachers are under a lot of pressure from for example YouTube presenters, or robots even because they can offer lectures. And even there’s a saying “every teacher that could be replaced by a robot, should be”.

Sanja Milosavljevic: (laughter) Well, it’s a new world. And everyone is adjusting to some new rules, so teachers also. It used to be a very respectable profession and teachers thought that they would always be respected parts of the society but as you said they are now under pressure by YouTube. How did this pandemic change your everyday life? In terms of going to university, teaching your students, how did it change? Do you like working from home, or- actually, how is it organized? Do you go to the university? Do you have live lectures?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: No, I don’t have face to face lectures. We were advised to teach remotely. Starting from the end of March this year and each faculty had decided on its own whether to do this online or blended learning in the new academic year that started in September and most of the faculties decided to put it in a remote way, so I also teach remotely. And even when we started to have this red zone, it started two weeks ago I think even the practical laboratories and exercises are not allowed anymore within the universities. So everything went again to a lockdown form so we stayed at home. The students just staying with their families if they are not from Warsaw and those who are from Warsaw did not move outside the city but do not attend the university. So basically this is the new normal for us.

Sanja Milosavljevic: But is it- it’s a new normal and you have to adjust, but how do you feel about that? Can this kind of teaching be productive? Can your students actually learn? It is the live word, but it is different when you have someone in front of you and you can- you have different energy than when you teach remotely.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Yeah, it’s a completely different process in terms of achieving the expected outcomes. And I think we did not yet prepare the specific way of offering the lectures and exercises in the remote setup. What we try not to do and we are even obliged by the system which is really not effective, I think, is to do 1:1. Is to do 1 hour and a half of lectures that we used to have in the classroom, now transfer it to the online setup. So, just keep talking to whatever lecture – like basic law lecture, you need to talk for 1 hour and a half. Especially as you have a huge group like 300 people attending the lecture. And this is not how it’s supposed to be. Because no one is really prepared to be productive in terms of concentration in sitting like we now, not moving in the class, not using eye contact because the students really, especially in the morning don’t use the cameras and I think that’s okay. But basically it’s not the same because we get kind of digital tiredness very quickly when we have this platform of communication, this intermediate way of contacting the students on the other side, or you, or anyone. And being concentrated and trying to have a conversation is very demanding. It’s very hard to get students involved nowadays. They used to be very quiet, they’re not like American students that always ask questions and everything. They are like sitting with their heads down sometimes. So what we try to do, we invent new ways of interaction, so quizzes, questions, and breakout groups when they talk in smaller groups. Some whiteboards that are digital whiteboards, there are some solutions. But it’s only possible when you have a small group. With large groups I think the best way would be to let the lecturer record the lecture and then the students listen to the lecture piece by piece in small parts whenever convenient for them. And then they meet with the lecturer to discuss all the difficult issues. So it’s basically a novel concept of flipped classrooms. When most of the time the work is done individually or in groups outside the class and whenever there’s something to do together, the students meet with the teacher, who is now called not the teacher but facilitator, educational facilitator. So, more responsibility is put on the student in this system. But we do not teach it in the school to be responsible for your learning process. You do not have these courses, how to plan the week or how to plan how to teach to get the knowledge to pass the exam. There is one good example I think – there is the homeschooling setup. When the families – especially those who already have longer experience with it found a way they learn. The children found their own way of studying. They cut all the material in smaller pieces. They do not sit in front of the computer, they also use the books – like paper. They get more from- something from all their forms. Writing, reading, all the forms. So you can cope with it. And those who are really resistant to this remote schooling effect after the lockdown are those families that are okay. They don’t have exams at schools face to face, but maybe this is even better. Because we just meet with the teacher once in front of the computer and this is it. We pass the exams and our lives do not change, apart from the you know the health stresses that we all had. We got ill, our family would stay safe etc. So there are good examples, but the system should be open to get out the most out of these examples but it does not much happen.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So the system should get out of the box. Not the individual, but the system. I think that homeschooling is the perfect example but I think it’s also convenient for younger children. Because when you are at the university you really need your teacher to guide you, to mentor you, to transfer their knowledge. But when you are younger, when you are in 4th or 5th grade, homeschooling is basically a very nice way to finish the school year.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: There are probably some cons, you know. Because I know students that are from secondary school that their ‘matura’ exam we call it, their final exam when they are 18.

Sanja Milosavljevic: We also- sorry Agnieszka, we also call it matura, yeah.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Matura! Yeah, so they did their maturas without any problem, while homeschooling themselves and getting reach- reaching out as much as possible for various sources of knowledge and even watching, you know- there’s plenty of sources. You can watch like massive open online courses and teach yourself and there are very interesting lectures on YouTube or Facebook or webinars, streams. So, if you approach it with an open mind you find the way to solve even the most difficult problem right now. Everything, almost every solution is available on the internet.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Can we return to something you said in the beginning? You said that you are using- that you are doing some research and you are using some data science. And you said the project lasted for five years. Is it correct?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: It’s still going.

Sanja Milosavljevic: It’s still ongoing, okay.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: It started five years ago, yeah. We do small projects. What way we project the data now? So firstly for example we were engaged in the European Commission project for the future of the internet to find trending topics like blockchains, AI, some other issues – robotization, automation, robotic learning, AI. And to do this, we scrapped- it’s called ‘web scraping’ various websites, public forums, non-public forums, scientific sources, non-scientific, informal sources, hacker spaces available in the internet to find out what is trending, what is emerging in the discussion that is going on in academia and society. And it was a huge database that should be prepared, cleaned and then the most important things are extracted to present it in a dynamic way and on a website. So we do this – it’s data visualization where you move from one topic to another where you decide what you search more than you are guided like with a powerpoint presentation. It is also a new way to approach the information and to engage the reader – how to interpret the data. So we have for example this website and also when we do research for companies – we did it for production companies – how to transform digitally. So we did also based on the questionnaire. We prepared the results as an interactive website. So there was almost no writing, it was visualization. Because people prefer to watch the pictures. They do not have much time. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: You know they say that our memory is three seconds- our short term memory is three seconds now. It was seven seconds and now it’s three seconds because we’re scrolling. So, maybe that’s why we like to watch pictures rather than to read – as you said, it takes time. Can you tell us about the state of entrepreneurship in Poland. What is trending? What about the food sector or food industry and what about the tech sector and tech industry? I know for sure that many products now in Serbia are actually from Poland. When you read the labels you see inside it says EU but it’s Poland. What is the state of entrepreneurship and what is the state of the food industry, that would be my second question, the food industry in Poland. 

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: In terms of entrepreneurship we are based in numerous small and medium enterprises like Matiss, seven percent are small and medium sized enterprises. And I think more and more – especially when new people approach business – are based on a new way of running the company. So they try to be open to others more, they trust more, they’re involved in some kind of federations or associations that support entrepreneurs. They share their knowledge and exchange knowledge. And this new type of companies, especially in startups including scaling startups, emerged like ten years ago or 10-15 years ago. Especially after we joined the EU 2004. It goes not only in that there’s a new way to approach free market opportunities, but also some funding emerged that was dedicated to innovative businesses. And we also failed in this because most of the companies when the funding stopped, they also stopped, but some of them, some of the entrepreneurs developed something new later on. So, I think in this sense the entrepreneurial spirit is growing very much in Poland. And there are many, many meetings despite these lockdowns and pandemic that are available on the internet where people share the first piece of knowledge for free and then they invite people to cooperate further. Most of them are based on internet communications. The channels are mostly- contact channels are developed through the internet, through social media. Now you know with restrictions – the gastronomers sector is closed completely in city form. So they need to deliver the takeaway. So for example in Warsaw where prices were very high for transportation offered by big players. So the restaurants, they joined their forces and they opened a new platform for transportations called Knajp. And they decrease the cost of delivery. So I think- and it’s also supported by the city. So I think there are forms of imaginative entrepreneurship where people find solutions in the crisis. Because crises are not only a danger but also an opportunity. So maybe they will- if they survive. Because some of them don’t survive and even in my surroundings there were some people who had to close their business in the gastronomy business the kafeteria was closed. So it depends what you want to do. There are many opportunities. If you want to survive you need to work harder. If you want to switch to something else, you need to just take a step back and think what you want to do. And the second question, the food sector, I think it’s very traditional in Poland. It’s very well established in this sense. We are one of the biggest exporters of apples for example in the world. We export a lot of meat, even to China for far away countries. And we also have innovations regarding this sector because there’s a new consortium of food innovators. Also our university is participating in this EIT food consortium that offers not only the grounds but also acceleration and research on food innovation. I think a lot of things are going on in Poland in regards to food. And what is funny in terms of vegan restaurants-

Sanja Milosavljevic: I was waiting for it! I wanted to ask you about vegan restaurants, that would be my next question. Because you are the third in the world in-

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Yes Warsaw is third in the world in terms of having- in terms of number of vegan restaurants per inhabitants, I think, or number of inhabitants. So after us it’s LA and Berlin – we are the third or fourth. So whenever you’re a vegan, come to Warsaw we will have your takeaway. Even in my neighborhood like two blocks away there are at least two vegan restaurants. Full – one is vegan ramen.

Sanja Milosavljevic: I remember!

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: You’ve been there? You tried them?

Sanja Milosavljevic: No, I think they were closed at the time when I went there, but we met the lady who runs the restaurant and I think we just spoke to them.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Something like this. And the restaurants they sell the flours and they sell food that is more of Asia style as well. It’s not noodles – pasta or ramen, but it’s something related to Asia in style of cuisine.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Can you tell me something, it’s interesting to me. The vegan movement – when did it happen? Is it something just trendy and hype? If you have that number of vegan restaurant that means that people change their habits. When did that happen?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: I think it’s a matter of the last three years, five years maybe? You know, Warsaw it’s a bit of an…extraordinary community. Because we have a lot of activism in Warsaw. Local communities are very active to take care of the district they live in. They participate in the local participation budget, they have it. So when applying with a project to help a kind of a problem to be solved in your area and people vote, all the city votes. So I think this way there are more- the mindset is more directed towards climate change and all these social-economical challenges we face nowadays. So if you are a climate advisor and you follow the science behind it, you do not want to make the CO2 more available in the air. So you don’t want the massive production of meat and then switch your eating style to vegan, or you become a flexitarian – sometimes vegan sometimes not. And as the businesses are located in Warsaw it’s a very huge concentration, so probably the preference is also changed so people switch from one delivery of lunch that is based on meat to another that is vegan. Another point that is very common in Poland is lots of variety. So whenever you come to Poland you have at least 10 varieties of ketchup, mayonnaise so you can choose. Because there’s a huge competition in each sector. Lots of production. And what is resulting – they are very small, they are not concentrated in one place. So you have these varieties of one product, but they are small and they don’t grow as much as they could be growing.

Sanja Milosavljevic: And become huge. And how did the pandemic change you personally? Did it affect you in any way?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: In my case the problem was only the first time when we were locked-down. Not allowed to go outside almost. And it was kind of strange that they closed all the sport halls – it was not available and I’m a fan of training sports. So it was a problem – I had to train at home, do those strength exercises and make noise for my neighbors by jumping on the floor. So it was that problem. In terms of working, I used to work already a lot remotely or part-time in the office, so for me it was not much of a change. So I was not dependent on work on how I arrange my day in order to deliver the outcomes, this was my decision. So I was used to it and in my personal situation it was just a slight change to arrange the table more for delivering the teaching online. and to separate the spheres more for relax and for work and to calm down my dog because he interacts with me all the time. He sits with me and whenever- now I ask my husband to keep it away but usually he stays with me. And as we live next to the first floor and every time another dog goes by he barks, my dog barks and takes care of the whole building because he’s very responsible. So he was like a child, annoying child, he interrupted my work many times. But generally overall it was not a very problematic experience for myself especially as I was also supported as an entrepreneur from the public funds that we got. It’s called an anti-crisis shield and it was available when your income diminished and it was the case in my situation in March and April. So I was also, as a company a little bit supported and not asked to pay these taxes, these social security taxes for three months, I think. It was good.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, we had similar measures here. So, Agnieszka we just reached the end of our conversation. So can you, what would be your message to entrepreneurs of the world? 

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: To all the entrepreneurs of the world, I think team up with people you think they think alike. The mindset is the most important thing in your case. And share your knowledge because when you share with others, the value grows and then the value is shared as well, the bigger value. So open up yourselves to other people.

Sanja Milosavljevic: When you say to team up with people who think alike, don’t you think that sometimes some good results can come from discussion with people who don’t think alike?

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: I know, I know, so be open to work hard with people with similar mindset and you want to discuss with. Even though they can challenge you, do it, work with them, day by day.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Thank you, thank you Agnieszka one more time. This was a pleasure. I like speaking to people from academia because you have the theoretical knowledge plus you have the practical side from the teaching. So thank you so much and I hope you also enjoyed our conversation.

Agnieszka Pugacewicz: Yes, it was a pleasure. I didn’t know I could talk so much about it, I could still talk for another hour about it. Thank you for having me.

Sanja MIlosavljevic: Thank you. So good people of the world, you were watching and listening to the Mondopreneur podcast with our guest Agnieszka Pugacewicz from Warsaw, Poland. You can always follow us on social media, on audio platforms and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. And one thing that I always forget to say, this whole project is supported by the US embassy in Belgrade. So until next week stay safe and stay in good health.