Sanja Milosavljevic: Good afternoon. My name is Sanja Milosavljević and I am going to be your host for today. What is unusual for today, my guest comes from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo, and we are going to speak in, so called, our language. That is why I am not speaking in English language, but in Serbian language. You could always  read the transcript in English language. Good day, Dajana, welcome to Mondopreneur podcast. Tell me, how are you?

Dajana Džindo: Good day, and thank you for inviting me, it’s a great pleasure to participate in this project. I am just fine – working, which is my most used word to describe how I am. So, given the fact that the weather is still nice, we are fine.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Good. Good. Can you tell us something about yourself? I know that you wear several different hats and that you deal with each one great. Plus, you are young and you have enough relevant working experience. Can you tell us something about yourself? What do you do, your educational background, and what would be in your focus for the next, let’s say, five years? Professionally.

Dajana Džindo: By education, I am an MA of Communicologist that is MA earned at University of Sarajevo. During the studies I have started, well, my interests went in several directions, but it all ran into one, most dominant. Currently, I am CEO of 787 Fondation in Bosnia and Herzegovina that helps Young and Women that establish their business or are on the way to register companies. We can discuss that a bit later. On the other hand, I am working for the Frankfurt School for Financial and Management with implementation of European Bank for Reconstruction and Development program. The name of the program is “Women in Business.” I work in the region of West Balkan and there are several levels of activities, but as the name says, we work with women in business, women entrepreneurs. And previously some working experiences were in connection with economic cooperation and women empowerment. I have worked and lived on several continents, so, by now, I have gathered some material, experience, that can be shared.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes. That’s why you are a perfect guest for this podcast, because you know so much. Because, one of the main aims of this podcast is to see how women entrepreneurs are dealing with this, let’s say, new situation due to pandemic. Bur also, generally, how it looks to be a woman entrepreneur. As you, I am sure, for all these years, have heard so many stories that are inspiring, less inspiring, good quality stories, or whatsoever. That’s why I reckon you are a great guest for this podcast of ours. So, what is the state of women entrepreneurship in Bosnia and Herzegovina? I mean, I am sure, as you said you are monitoring the region of West Balkans, that you are well informed with the state of women entrepreneurship in Serbia, as well. Is there any difference? Are you ahead of us, behind us? Are we at the same level? What are our obstacles? What are we fighting from?

Dajana Džindo: Well. I can say that the situation in the region is similar. When we speak about Bosnia and Herzegovina, we have less registered small businesses. Whether it is Private Limited Company or Sole proprietorship, in comparison to population, which is something that we in B&H expected to change in recent years, because there were a lot of incentives and programs for start-ups, however, basically, there were no significant results or increase. So, per 3,5 mil citizens, maybe even less, as many people left the country, we have just over 100,000 businesses of various forms, which is essentially a fairly small number. At the same time, all the statistical data and interpretation of data is based on active and registered, mostly private limited companies, which means that sole proprietors are exceptions. And all of these statistics don’t give us the best picture of what the state of entrepreneurship actually is. But, if we look from this practical side, I would say that we have slow, organic growth. We can not say that our economy is in a bad conditions – it is not. However, our country and system connected to it is so huge, as there are many levels – we have state, than institutes, then offices, one has to finance it and the burden for economy is so huge, for workers and that doesn’t give our economy the chance to breathe, specially to small businesses, and the majority of businesses in B&H is micro and small business and they contribute the most to GDP and employment. And what would be the difference in comparison to Serbia, let’s say we have more businesses, and that difference is mostly in comparison to Belgrade, and in your case you have in some sectors more developed businesses, where we didn’t make any progress yet. And if we talk about IT businesses, you have some examples of companies with world wide success, while we haven’t broken through that barrier yet. There are some cases, but it hasn’t happened yet. So I would say that in that sense of development we are lagging a little, but that the whole ecosystem, the whole environment is much more unfavorable here, it is very difficult to cope with all these regulations, it is not known who is responsible for what, there is always someone tax, fee. If people knew that in advance, I think it would be much easier to include it somewhere in your calculation of the known. However, there are a lot of these uncertainties, and when someone wants to invest from the outside, for example, or if you find a partner from the outside, it usually fails for these very reasons – complexity. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Do you have a lot of parafiscal taxes?

Dajana Džindo: (laughter) We have so many of them that, let’s just see – the EU financed to make a map of those parafiscal taxes, and in the end, they didn’t manage to unite them in one place.( Because, depending on where you are registered, it can be so complicated, who you do business with. Simply put, it is very difficult to sum up. We, for example, when we do education at 787 Foundation, and let’s say we make that introduction to some legal bases, we know that we only have to talk about it for a couple of hours so that people get only the basic feeling of what awaits them and that often frightens them, so we have to balance and explain – if people have already managed to cope with that, that they will have support in all this. But I forgot to comment on this side of women’s entrepreneurship. And there is also an interesting situation because following data regarding women in business is a new trend and we do not have credible statistics that we can rely on. For most of the countries in the region, we have an estimate on the percentage of women in business. It is usually around, that percentage goes around one quarter of all businesses are women owned. However, there is also one more thing – do we monitor women that are owners or women that manage businesses. There was an example that at one point there were incentives for women owned businesses, and they were ad hoc transferred to women, but still managed by men. So they have realised that every system has its flaws. Now we monitor both ownership and who manages the company, because the point is that women contribute with their work, ideas, skills. So I would have to say that the number is somewhere a quarter of the businesses, but in what condition they are, it is so difficult to assess because the approach is usually like – these are women in business. However, again, it is a very diverse group where we have a lot – most often, unfortunately – of those who start without anything, without support, without financial resources and so on, and they need a lot. But there are also those who are well-situated, who have a great team, who have a great idea at the start and break through more easily or go immediately to some larger scale, they immediately say that it is a big company with 100 or so employees, 200 it doesn’t matter. So, it is diverse. But, that there is a lack of women in business, that they are much more careful and much more critical regarding all of their moves, that is definitely one point that makes a difference towards men. Which can be an advantage but also a flaw. The disadvantage is that fewer of them establish the business and the advantages are, once they really establish the business, then these steps are mostly well calculated, it is easier to survive all those shortcomings, they survive the obstacles they encounter, so it is difficult to generalize.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, you are right, I agree with you. Do you have a lot of informal businesses? Informal entrepreneurship. What is the situation there? Are there any – in Serbia that exists, and we all know it, it is a public secret.  Like, I bake cookies and sell them on Instagram. How is it with you? Is it present?

Dajana Džindo: Definitely yes, but we don`t know the proportions of it.

Sanja Milosavljevic: It is hard to follow the numbers.

Dajana Džindo: Yes. But to be honest, when we make comparisons in the region, my personal impression is that in that sense, Montenegro is the leader in the region, then several other countries, and then B&H and Serbia. There are, however, I think that this informal business moved to digital sphere. Earlier, goods were sold at the markets, so it was shaddy. And now, we do that over social media. We even had a situation that our inspectors ordered from them, just to check them up. And then they punished them and that is how a certain number was somewhere suppressed, but of course there are still a lot of these businesses. And at the end of the day, I support running the business in that manner, for, let’s say six months. I see that as a market testing. Because, it is nonsense to to get involved in the cost of registering a business, all your duties go immediately, everything – from salary to taxes and so on, no one asks you when have you started. And you do not even know if there is demand, what are the reactions of customers in the market and so on… So, my attitude is that you should test it informally, for certain period of time. Somewhere up to three to six months, and if it is not working in this six months period you should change the idea or give up, and if it’s working great, then register the company.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Tell me, I don’t know if you have heard or seen that news, you know that they gave us some kind of financial help, they paid minimum wage for employees, they paused paying taxes and contributions for some period of time – the state. What’s the situations in your country? Did entrepreneurs had some kind of help? Did they have, during-

Dajana Džindo: Regarding Corona virus?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, regarding Corona virus. 

Dajana Džindo: Well, just before the conversation, I looked at dates, because I knew that there were delays with the reactions, but I was really interested in taking a closer look. So I saw that the first case of Corona in our country happened at the very beginning of March. In the mid-March, they started with some preventive measures in terms of restrictions of work, business, bans on gatherings and so on, and then at the end of March there were complete restrictions that only at the end of April laws were passed that were the basis for any incentives, subsidies , and they would be paid for another month or two or three after that. So it was, I can’t say no, but it was mostly delayed reactions. And I must say that the most important measures in our country are at the level of the entities, so not the state but the entities, the Federation of B&H and the Republika Srpska. In both cases, there were several items, but the main one was the subsidy of contributions and those other obligations to the state, which in a way means the transfer of the budget only to the second item. However, it was so modest. For example, in the Federation, this subsidy amounted to 122 euros per employed person, which does not even cover the contributions of the minimum wage in full. And they did not condition those employers that they have to pay salaries to employees. So there was some nonsense. Of course, they also imposed some conditions, such as a significant drop in turnover, i.e. January or February 2020. Basically, the point of the whole story is that in the end – just the other day in early September – our Prime Minister of the Federation came out and said that 90 million of the planned 250 subsidies had been used. It means that the criteria were so strict that they did not use it at all. And here we know that only in Sarajevo, a large number of businesses – hotels and other businesses related to tourism, which is most affected, by some services that are again related to tourism and the like, that these businesses closed and did not use all incentives, and so on. Another important thing is-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Sorry to interrupt, but did somebody come out and said – “Sorry, we miscalculated. We didn’t relocate the money properly. Or not?

Dajana Džindo: Well, no, the Prime Minister came out and said that they used certain amount, and we are returning the rest now – since, in order to pass that law, they made a rebalance of the budget, and now they will make a rebalance again to return it from where they took it. And they took, which is the worst, for example, five and a half million were taken for the development of entrepreneurship. Which makes no sense. They took, I think, 3 millions for education. There are some similar items that are again very important for dealing with that situation caused by the Corona virus, so it just points to the level … I just can’t say unconscious-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Recklessness, yes. Yes. 

Dajana Džindo: And then, as another mechanism that was very important, is to establish a Guarantee fund in both the Federation and the RS with development banks. And I’ll just tell you that it was just signed for the Federation in July and in the RS in early August. So here it is – months and months – businesses can or can’t survive. And only now these guarantee funds will be activated. However, what is interesting, of course, they are again working in cooperation with commercial banks, which is quite fine that again there are no such items and conditions as for example that you had to do positive business all the time, that you have no debts to this, that. ..which contradicts the point that we just need to save businesses that have had a critical period with business. So, we will see what will happen. The results of that, however, what I can say is that most businesses do not expect any special help from the state, ie from the entities. Perhaps, somewhere the most practical help comes from these lowest levels who actually have the least resources, these are the municipality or possibly the cantons, wherever they are in the country. So, everyone is more or less turned to themselves and is looking for a way to ensure their own survival through some changes. So, that’s the situation. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, there is that saying, that you can only rely on oneself. It would be ideal if there was a synergy between the state, small businesses and the economy – the economy in general. Because, especially small businesses, they are the bloodstream of one economy. And if you suffocate those little ones with inadequate measures, slow reaction … I mean, it’s great that they did something, but it’s really too late. If you have the first registered in March, and then in August you just passed a regulation that will make their business easier, it’s really too long for anyone to survive, small or large – it doesn’t matter. 

Dajana Džindo: And that actually points out some misunderstanding in the direction of how the private sector actually works and what they can or cannot afford, to say so. And all these steps were somehow wrapped up in that story of corruption, and I said from the very beginning that when we are already going in that direction of technological development, we should use technologies to conduct these things transparently. In a sense, we have seen that the WHO has created a blockchain platform where records once adopted cannot be changed. So we can’t go back retroactively and change things. Everyone has access to the data at the same time, so in that sense I think that all these activities of the government should have another party that they would choose as a partner to monitor so that they could blockchain technology where all these measures would be recorded, where the criteria would be clear . Moreover, some criteria have been adopted, for example, and on the one hand, I understand that they are trying to help those who are most endangered. However, very often, because of the ignorance of the private sector, many people were excluded quite by accident, and very often it is necessary to go case by case and judge whether it is a business that should or should not be supported. I mean, if we take into account that we don’t have that many businesses and that not everyone asked for this incentive, it’s actually feasible. Especially if there is one such IT solution that would help. It is only a matter of will, whether they want it or not, because if there is no transparency, then they can do what they want, money can be transferred and so on. So…

Sanja Milosavljevic: I know… where have you reached with the digitalization? With us now it’s so much … that, blockchain, first what you mentioned and then that digital transformation. These are now two words that you can hear literally … I think my 70-year-old mother has heard of those two terms and would use them for sure if she knew in what context to put them. How is it with you? In our country, digital transformation, something desperate people try to catch like it is something that will help them, and they don’t really know from the inside what that concept means and what it actually means. What is the situation … I’m not talking about everything, so I’m not generalizing, but for the majority.

Dajana Džindo: So, we can firstly comment on this side of institutions, authorities and so on, I think that it should go through that process because it would greatly facilitate this whole complexity and really create a more favorable environment, but this process actually started a long time ago and it hasn’t moved so far. On the business side, we have a variety, again. I have to say that, I may be lucky one, so I have an environment in which both business and people are digitized, and I can normally conduct correspondence via email and everything being up to date. However, a very large part of that business sector operates on the basis of the telephone call, let’s make an appointment, see you in the cafe – now a little less in the cafe, now it’s more over the phone. And that really makes it impossible to take some things to the next level. Not to mention this part of sales through social networks, websites, or web shops, other specialized platforms and so on. So we have one gap that has started to narrow thanks to Corona virus. Which is really one great thing where we can just testify that people who are just in some late 60s, 70s, are still in business, that they started passionately using Zoom, mail, all these other tools, and previously considered it impossible. However, if I look at this part of using digital for sale, which is the focus of the business, I think it is still taken for granted. What do I mean when I say this? Here, for example, we work a lot with women in business who are again in different stages and we have both more advanced and less advanced ones and then they say well, I will start selling through social networks now as I am a little more on Instagram, Facebook, whatever. I will do this and that. And they don`t understand, it is not just, I wake up one morning and click three clicks and it works. No, it has the whole process of planning, designing, photographing it in an adequate way, recording in an adequate way, creating that content itself. What am I photographing? What if my business is based on services, and I don’t have anything to photograph? How I will do it in a creative way, how will I form my price and the price is being adequate, there are a lot of elements. And then when they actually embark on this process, they realize that it can’t be solved in a day, but that it actually takes a lot of time, that it’s actually a time investment and that it must be done continuously and only after investing a few months of your time, and  if there is some money, only after a couple of months we see some progress, some effect. So, it is not that simple. The same story is with: “And I’ll make a web shop, I’ll hire a company…”, of course the company is there, and they ask a series of questions to which we have no answers. One should prepare everything. Web page is done in three, four, five, six months. Then only when it starts is, how do I solve it logistically, what’s with the delivery, how is the payment related to the delivery, how do I follow these, how is the CRM? A lot of some … it’s not easy at all, and you have some little impression, especially on social networks, that everyone can do it and that you don’t need advice about it at all. Which I think is a big mistake about the photography itself and some of those things.Mainly, I think small businesses can do it at the beginning they can charmingly present how they can pack it all themselves just fine. However, as they work on building a brand, I think they have to acquire skills on their own if they are not going to hire someone, and very often it actually turns out to be easier to hire someone than to spend a lot of time taking time for some other actions related to business.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So, it is pretty much the same. Because with us, that’s when … when it started with the Corona, suddenly everyone was on the Internet and everyone was trying to offer something over the Internet, and they didn’t realize that, for example, logistics was a big problem. Even if you have something you can offer, you have to deliver it to buyers, somehow. I mean, you have to buy raw materials and produce something. So somehow, those things are taken very easily. And it’s like digitization – we all have an email at once, we collect some emails and send newsletters. And we are now digitalized. For instance, I don’t need that. I need to digitalize something else in my business. Like, automated issuing invoices. For me, that would be a step forward.

Dajana Džindo: Absolutely, I agree. We have had, that is, I can see a lot of cases where, for example, a consumer product that doesn’t really cost much. We have started to digitize sales in the sense that I will sell it through online channels, and if you get into a situation where you sell a product for example from 2 euros and delivery for that product costs 4 euros, why would someone – and they don’t even know how to pack , that in fact you are not selling one product but you have to determine what is your minimum, what is your price to be able to adjust, who is your reliable partner for that delivery so that in any situation whether it is to the Corona virus or not, it really reaches on time, not damaged and so on. So I agree that we may have caught that one direction of digitization in a mass sense, but the point of digitization is simply to work smarter with the help of IT tools. So, it doesn’t have to be just online sales at all, there can be a lot of other solutions.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes. Now, for years we have been learning what a business canvas model is, now we will learn what it really is, what digitalization is. And, let’s say this – you as a buyer, as a consumer – did your sellers, manufacturers or service providers, it doesn’t matter, did they try to give you some new value, now that you are like that – we were all locked in houses and we all ordered like crazy over the Internet, what we need and what we don’t need … Did anyone really try to explain what new value is being offered to customers? Did you have that experience? Or, you just bring me a basket full of veggies and fruits and that’s it?

Dajana Džindo: I have to admit that I have seen and recognized this new value more through women’s businesses. This is a bit robust – businesses run by women. Maybe from that moment of paying attention to details and the need to look after others in such circumstances, to get to that win-win situation and something like this. If we look at some average businesses that are simply around me, that I had an encounter with during the Corona, that delivered something, there was mostly no – they did not feel the need to emphasize something. The only thing they paid attention to was to follow some of the measures that were recommended related to the prevention of Corona, and even that was an important moment because there were businesses that did not pay attention to it, that came into contact so recklessly, and we don’t know if they are infected or not. However, I think that they are more women’s businesses – I say, again, that is my perception somewhere – where even in the Foundation, we have had a lot of cases where they have reoriented or supplemented or changed a certain angle, in a way that really makes a difference. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes. Well, yes. In our country, it is something – someone managed to do it elegantly, someone did it less elegantly, but most of them failed to transform themselves, their services or products a little and then to present that new, added value that is important to me as a customer. I am a seller, but I am a buyer, too. I use the same things as others use.

Dajana Džindo: Yes, but I am generally not the one – satisfied with the that – I think that the moment called “customer service” which is a very important moment for me personally, I think that in our country is underdeveloped and that only work in this segment can improve significantly the whole experience and the brand and, in the end, the financial side of the business of those businesses, it is now going that easier way, because it has always been done that way, why should I change it now. However, the situation is not particularly where we have, and in the case of the region, an intensive connection where it is quite normal for me to order a book, a dress, jam, whatever from Serbia, because it is now possible for me. Which means that the competition is no longer just within my country, but it is much wider. Not to mention some international brands and platforms and so on. So that’s one of the priority things that I would say they need to improve, and which again has to do with the Corona, because it shows what my values  actually are. Do I care about my customer or do I just want to give them my products and service.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes. Well, yes. That is exactly the case … we had the collapse of the courier services – I eventually took it upon myself to deliver it around Belgrade because I was not at all ready to leave the products to them to do the delivery. And when I send it somewhere in Serbia, then it is literally like, I pray to God that nothing happens. Not to break, not to destroy, not to lose, yes, I don’t know, whatever, not to play football with packages. Yes, uh … well, tell me … you very skilfully avoided that at the beginning, so I’ll come back to that question. Where do you see yourself – I usually avoid those questions, those questions are totally nonsense for me, especially in this context of a pandemic when life can turn 180 degrees in one day. But, where do you see yourself in five years from now? I think it’s you- it sounds like I praise you, but you have enough experience, you have enough knowledge and you have enough competencies, I think you need to do some consulting. So you are well acquainted with the region, with the situation in the region and you have a topic of women’s entrepreneurship in your little finger. But where do you see yourself? What is that you want for yourself?

Dajana Džindo: I have to admit that there are some situations in our country, which can drive me crazy at times, to think that I am going to South Sudan. As-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Take me! Take me with you!

Dajana Džindo: And there is, you know, the zero point where we actually were in the 90’s and that, I’m thinking, let’s correct the injustices there when we can’t be here. However, I see myself right here and right somewhere in the direction you mention. I took the first steps in that direction. First of all, I have to say that the 787 Foundation enables me to do that consulting work in a way, because, for example, we currently work with over a hundred businesses through long-term programs. Which means that we work with them for at least three months to a year, we intensively monitor them, adjust, set goals, look where they are, provide services, assist, whether at a lower or higher level, it depends. And for me, it really is a great pleasure because when a step forward is taken, concrete results can be seen. And then you can follow just looking at someone’s business. And there is a great responsibility – of course, in the end, those who make the decision are the business owners, but again, we advise somewhere, give some context, support and then have a sense of great responsibility. And going through that, I definitely realized that that moment of consulting is on the horizon and I actually made arrangements with a friend who is also very experienced and covers one area that I don’t cover, so it should go in partnership terms to round out that package that we believe is needed from our previous experience, primarily for small businesses. So, maybe you will see me in that role next year, and who knows where in five years. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, fine. I am really looking forward to that. Is there anything you would like to send as a message? Not just in Serbia, but to the world? What would you say?

Dajana Džindo: That is a hard question…

Sanja Milosavljevic: Hey, I know it’s a tough question, but this is more at the level of the first association. What is… I mean, I do not expect that Njegos comes from your mouth…. But literally, would you say?

Dajana Džindo: So what first comes to my mind is to focus on doing what gives them pleasure. If we look in the context of business, very often people have the right intuition, but analysis and thinking prevents them from taking the action. And for women in particular to relax a little bit from perfectionism. (laughter) I’m the same, so maybe most, most of the women around me are just such a woman in business where the criteria are so strict and high and they are punished for every wrong step they take. And then on the other hand, I also see men who very often, well, don’t turn around properly for some mistakes they make. We just have to be more careful towards ourselves. What this movement of yours says, just go gently to yourself, I think is the best message. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Dajana, thank you alot. I like to say that you are my very dear friend, full of spirit. And I’m so – I mean, I am bonded to you, and we got along so well then the first time we met and now we’re just upgrading that basic acquaintance and friendship. Thank you a lot, thank you for your time. This was Dajana from Bosnia and Herzegovina, a lovely young and brave woman. You can always follow us on social media if you type #mondopreneur, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel by also typing Mondopreneur, to hear these wonderful smart women I talk to. Till next time, greetings!