Sanja Milosavljevic: Good people of the world, you are listening to and watching the Mondopreneur podcast. The main aim of this podcast is to share stories of people from all over the world to see how they are dealing and coping with this pandemic situation, what happened with their careers, what happened to their businesses. And we just try to spark some new ideas or to comfort ourselves if we are able to hear that other people have similar issues or similar problems like we do. This whole project is supported by the US embassy in Belgrade, Serbia. My today’s guest comes from Warsaw, Poland. For me she is like a superstar in the food industry. She is going to introduce herself to you, but I will just say her name is Katarzyna and she’s an expert in food industry. So, hi Kasia, how are you?

Katarzyna Świąder: Hello Sanja, thank you one more time for the invitation. I am really glad to see you. It is possible, you know, to have some small talk, yeah?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yes, yes, but this is basically something like that. If everything was normal, we would be probably somewhere in Warsaw, Belgrade or somewhere else, we would be drinking coffee and exchanging some ideas about the trends in the food industry or whatever. So this is kind of a coffee, over Zoom. So, can you tell us something about yourself? Like what is your educational background and do you actually work in the field you studied for? If not, what changed and if you have any interesting hobbies, you can also share that with us.

Katarzyna Świąder: Hmm, okay, so that will be very long. Okay, so I studied food technology in Poland, and then I got some scholarship and moved to Spain, where I studied for one year in the University of Burgos. And I think it was the first time that I experienced food design and professional sensory evaluation. It was very fun because the aim of my work was to design some kind of kefir, this fermented dairy product. Is it popular in Serbia?

Sanja Milosavljevic: Of course, of course, very much.

Katarzyna Świąder: Kefir? Okay, but in case of Spain it’s not so popular product. And in time that I was studied there it was possible to find kefir in supermarket only based on goat or sheep milk. Yeah? So they were very extra healthy products and so on, but you can imagine the taste of those products. So they- even if you try to open it, you go- when you smell it you really didn’t have- you didn’t want to try it, yes? So that’s why we wanted to work on some kind of kefir that was based on cow milk and would have a very high sensory quality. Yeah? So, I made my researches with different cultures, with different temperatures, time and so on to get the best results and part of this work was also sensory evaluation of those products because in the end we wanted to know if this product was really nice and if it has high quality. And it was also a very funny situation because I had to train the expert panel that’s based on Spanish people, so we’re using vocabulary in English, Spanish, Polish just to explain, you know, all the vocabulary to explain everything accurately so it was very, very funny in that moment. But even though the quality was quite high when I coming back to Spain, I see that there are still few kefirs based on cow milk on the shelves still. The most popular dairy fermented product is yogurt there, still. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: It’s the same in Serbia, we are still- we drink yogurt a lot but kefir appeared maybe in the industrial sense maybe 15-20 years ago. I liked it at first, but I know that some people it took time for them to adjust to the smell and the taste, so. But it’s- the similar trends are here in Serbia. And what’s the situation in Poland? Do you drink skyr, kefir, do you have those kinds of products? 

Katarzyna Świąder: We’ve got like milk, like buttermilk, like different kinds of yogurts, like iced milk also and kefir is also one of these popular ones. But in Spain is not so. But what was also very fun, at the time I found that in some pharmacies it was very popular for the people to prepare kefir for their own. So they’d buy kefir grains and they cultivate it at home, so they make some fermentation at home and they prepare it with these kefir grains. So even now I have these kefir grains so from time to time I can use it to prepare some kefir grains. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Nice, I think that’s perfect. I know we didn’t agree- well, I didn’t send that question to you, but what do you think of the rise of fermented products, especially during the last year. Or during past five years. Like sourdough breads and drinks and beverages like kefir. Here in Serbia we have a drink called boza, I don’t know the English word for that but it’s also a fermented drink made of- I don’t know, I really don’t know, but it’s also a fermented drink. So, is that a trend? Is it something that’s now popular worldwide to ferment our vegetables, to ferment our dairy products, do you have any information about that?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yes, it’s started to be more and more popular. People are trying to ferment everything that they’ve got in their heads even. So they started with different kinds of fruits, vegetables. In Poland also we’ve got some kind of products like fermented cucumbers, fermented cabbage, so they are very traditional and typical products here in Poland. And I think especially during these pandemia times people start to use them quite frequently because they increase the immune system and so on. And also there’s more and more information about the microbiome and its influence, so yes we can say that it’s quite a big trend nowadays. But I think if we start to speak about trends we can say about some and others also that start to be more present especially during the pandemia. Actually yes, but the kefir, the moment I realized that it was my first time that I was working with food product design. And also you know that kind of work with the food design and sensory evaluation makes me think about my next steps so I applied for the PhD studies in two institutions and after that they accept me. But finally I chose that one that has a professional sensory lab. I thought that was the best solution to go farther with this education. And in the meantime when I was doing my PhD I started working in the general veterinary inspectorate, it was also that time that Poland just came into EU so it was also hard time because we had to make adaptations of our Polish laws to the European laws and there was so much to arrange. And I was responsible for the laboratories that are organized in Poland that are responsible for the inspection of animals and animal products in Poland, so it was a very challenging job. I was also responsible for monitoring of residue in the products of animals and animal origin. At the same time I started to be the Polish Representative of the Working Group of the European Commission, and it was also Digisan group we were also trying to exchange information how we are dealing with this monitoring, how we can improve, what kind of problems are there and so on. So it was also something nice and good experience at the time and then, I also moved to the another agency, it was the Office for Registration of Medicinal products, Medicinal devices and Biocidal products and in that organization I was responsible for the marketing authorization of veterinary medicinal products. It was also very curious because I was able to know what are the procedures, what kind of documentation is needed to make an authorization about working with active substances and so on, so it was also a very nice experience. And also at the time I was the Polish representative in the group called Marketing and Authorization of Veterinary medical products in the European Medicine Agency, so nowadays we can hear a bit more about the European Medicine Agency because of the authorization of the vaccines. But before it was I think the organization that was not so well known around the world and nowadays we can hear a bit more about them .And finally because at the same time still I was studying, having some lectures with the students, making my research and when I made my PhD, I stayed only at the university so just taking part in various projects, grants that were focusing on topics related to functional food, sensory evaluation and also food design. But I can tell you also as part of the food design, I also designed interiors, because I am also a licensed interior designer, so that’s my hobby. You were asking about my hobby, one of many. But that kind of hobby that makes me some escape from everyday life, giving a lot of pleasure. Because you can see- you are working, but after that you can see nice results, so it’s kind of count over heart.

Sanja Milosavljevic: But it’s nice, it’s probably the way you express your creativity, or the creative side of your personality. So, perfect. I mean, designing new products and designing interiors there’s one thing in similar – design. So, it’s something creative, it’s a creative process.

Katarzyna Świąder: But you know I feel that if we generally speak about new product design and it doesn’t depend if we are designing food or services or interiors, I think we have to take into consideration a few things: they have to have good quality, they have to be funcional, they have to be beautiful and they have to have also the answer to the customer’s needs and the needs of the final user. So if we are designing anything in that way, I think the final user will be very happy. So it’s something in common that all these things have if we are speaking of new product development. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: What would be a new product development for you? What are the steps that we have to take to create a new product? And who is actually involved? When we speak about new product development, we mostly think well most of my friends or whatever, they think it’s just some person sitting somewhere in the laboratory or if it’s a service they sit in front of their computers, but they don’t know that the sales department, the marketing department, the HR, everyone is involved in designing the products, in developing the product, so can you explain to us?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yes, even the customer is design, so. Designing is more like teamwork. So it’s not like that we have only one person and if we’re speaking about food design we are thinking that it’s maybe some food technologies, yes or maybe nutritionists and they are just sitting in a laboratory and doing everything. It’s just one part of that design process. So, even they gonna create some formula, yes, some recipe, it’s not final step of the product design and what I’m all the time saying that it’s teamwork and even if we try to arrange as much as possible people with different professions at the beginning of those steps connected to the new product development it’s better. So, because after that if we will create a formula we will have some troubles because all the time people will come and say okay, but it costs too much, it doesn’t weight us as we wish, it’s not comfortable for us for delivery and packaging and so on. It doesn’t look nice with that design of packaging, it’s not dedicated to that group of customers. So there are many complaints that we should avoid. So if we go step by step from the new product idea, by perfecting this idea by the customer define it will be easier, yes? But what I also say is that it’s very important that we ask ourselves what kind of consumer needs we want to work for. So if we didn’t know and if it’s just only our, I don’t know, because very often we have some kind of company that finds some kind of idea, they find some product for example especially in the US because that’s the market that usually everyone goes first and after that spreads and goes to European countries and other countries. But they forgot that very often what works there, didn’t work the same in other environment, yes? So, very often it’s like some kind of ambitious of the investor, yes? and they really didn’t answer who will be the final customer and what kind of problems they have or if they really need it. Because sometimes it’s happened that investments are just only the needs of the investor, yes? But of course it’s necessary to have some dreams, to think wider and to start with something, but it’s very necessary to make some confrontation with this idea and to make a confrontation with future customers. That’s why we always recommend to make some kind of evaluation with customers in the beginning, to interview them, to check what’s their opinion, what they really need, what they- what are some products that are not available in the market but maybe it would be helpful for them if those products were there, so that kind of information give us also some ideas in which direction we have to go with this our idea, because sometimes it’s evaluate and finally from the idea A we have idea B or C or D and it’s totally different product. So it’s very, very important to ask at the beginning what the customers think of that. And nowadays we’ve got many tools that we can use to evaluate it. More and more popular it’s like design thinking for example method. Many companies, not just food companies are trying to use this method to check and to create ideas that correspond to the customer needs. Like brainstorming, like evaluation and checking the trends, because we see that nowadays even if we’ve got some kind of trends that are popular in the US, they start to be more popular in other countries too, like in the European countries. So, if we are updated, it’s easier for us to see if this is a good trend with our product or maybe it’s not the time, we have to wait. We’ve got always some kinds of example that- in case for example of lactose-free products in Poland. This technology was well known in Poland for many years, it was like in 80’s, but it was the time when there was nothing in the shelves and nobody was looking for lactose-free milk, they were happy that any milk is on the shelf at that moment. But for example in countries like the Scandinavian countries like Sweden, Finland, they make some advantage of this and they start to produce these kind of products and now they’re well known for the production of lactose-free products and all the time when I go there I Can see that all these fridges are bigger and bigger with totally different products, lactose-free products and like 4-5 years ago it started to be more popular in Poland. But as I mentioned, that time that they discovered the technology to make lactose-free products, it was not the time to be doing that. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: That kind of product. 

Katarzyna Świąder: Yeah. It was also the same for example with vegan products. Now we’ve got a big boom, everybody is talking about that, everybody is looking for plant proteins, trying to use them. There’s even some problems nowadays on the market to obtain them.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Really?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yes, because everyone is trying to make some plant alternatives to animal proteins. And as we know this market with the animal proteins is quite huge because they are also using them for other products for the sportsment, for the infants formula so it started to be a really huge market for the plant proteins and nowadays the market has a problem where to find them to create your products. Even the meat producers they start to have their onlines with the plant proteins, like sausages and so on. So it’s starting to be very, very popular. I don’t know how it will go in the future.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Well, I think it’s going to develop, from my point of view, I think it’s going to develop as much as we develop our awareness about the importance of protecting our planet and nature. You know? How much water we waste for raising one cow. So I think it’s going at the same pace, from my point of view, at the same pace. Our awareness of the protection of environment is going to dictate how fast it’s going to develop that vegan niche of market. And I don’t think it’s going to be niche in maybe 10 or 15 years, it’s just going to be a market. It’s going to be specialized niche market. So can you explain to us what is a functional food?

Katarzyna Świąder: Functional food is a food that has some additional heavy value apart from the nutritional one. So it started to be also very popular trend nowadays because we can observe the customers more aware of their health and the health of their families. So, they concentrate more on what they are eating, they are like more conscious about their lifestyle, what they are eating how after that they behave. If they feel good or not, if they’ve got good mood or not, if they can sleep well or not. So it’s starting to be very important thing nowadays for the people, so they start to look carefully at what they are buying and what’s written on the label and they start to read the label, that’s also very important I think. And I feel that because of that the producers see that it can be some advantages for them, some possible to put different kind of products on the market that have this functional benefit, but it still I think difficult for the customers to see the differences and to cut what’s really- does it mean that it’s functional. Because in Europe it’s not that well regulated. We’ve got some health claims, some nutritional claims. In for example Asian countries when the customer goes to the shop and they see some kind of symbols, signs on the packaging they know this is a functional product. So even if they are paying more, they know that they are paying for something with some additional value. And in Poland I think that some customers they don’t know how to recognize that some product has some additional value. Because producers put a lot of symbols, signs on the packaging like vegan, gluten-free, lactose-free and ecological, organic products, sometimes they put that it has some vitamin C additionally added, that they have no added sugar, that it’s natural. After all that I think the customers are really confused and they don’t know what is the value of this product. Yeah. And of course it’s also difficult for the producers because they have to be very strict with their regulations. That’s a thing in Europe that they couldn’t say just anything about the health effect because it’s forbidden apart from those regulated by the European Commission like the health claims. So I think it’s also difficult for the producers also in this moment. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: I mean me as a producer of certain type of food, I don’t put any of this stuff on my package. So you won’t see any of these labels. I have the nutritional value table and I have basic info about my company and I don’t know best before, but I don’t put any of this vegan, lactose-free- because sometimes I see a product that doesn’t contain milk at all, it’s not a milk-based product and it says lactose-free. You know, on the package you can see lactose-free and I’m like okay. That product like bean, canned bean. There’s no milk in that kind of product and the producers puts lactose-free. So, I think it’s also confusing the customers. 

Katarzyna Świąder: You know I heard also about some other things that the producers put, this symbol of vegan products. All the products that are plant based, even some spices they put vegan and for sure people will buy them more frequently than other spices without these kind of signs. So, you know. I’ve got also some other colleague that’s working some company that’s responsible for online shopping and that’s starting to also be very popular now and he says that everything that has some vegan signs the sales is increasing. So it’s like, you know. They are just making some research, they look at how the customers really react to that kind of information and they try to use it. But finally yes, I think the customers are really pure, they aren’t able to be consequence, they weigh how they are shopping and really they need the most important information. And even they are starting to be more and more aware of the products they are buying, but I think that is going in a totally different direction. Yeah? So, they miss sometimes the most important things that the products should have. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: I know, I agree with you actually. So what are some other trends in Europe, let’s say, when we talk about food? So we are going to develop some new products that are functional, we are maybe returning to vegan food, but what are some other trends? Is there a special niche for premium products or products that have some imported ingredient or whatever, so what do you think? What are the trends for the next period?

Katarzyna Świąder: Actually if we see what has happened in the past months and what is the direction for the next because of the pandemia. We can see that trends have changed during this pandemia time. And we can see that there is a strong trend in the production of products for boosting immunity. We can see that so many companies are trying to put functional products or dietary supplements, yes? With these active substances and always we have to be aware and we have to think about that because as we know if we’ve got a functional products, we can have some kind of reserves when we are eating them quite frequently. Without that we can’t observe any fruitful effects finally. But it’s really a strong trend with the oldest products, functional products that are boosting immunity. Another one thing that’s based on the pandemic and all the products  that we’ve got, there are products for boosting mood and also stress reduction. So like one of the syndromes with the Covid is problem with sleeping, so they are looking for that kind of ingredients that can be added to the products to boost mood and add some stress reduction. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Sorry, sorry, can I interrupt you? I think there is bioidentical hormone melatonin and you can buy it actually in the form of a pill, but what would be a substitute- can we use it, actually in producing new food products? Can you- when you say products that are going to improve our moods or improve our stress ability or whatever, do you have an idea what that would be?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yes, so they for example use different kinds of extract, plant extract like lavender extract, like hops extract like melissa for example, yes? That kind of product. You can find like different kind of drinks like teas, like mixtures of those extracts in different kinds of product.

Sanja Milosavljevic: But is there a way to develop a solid product? Like a cookie or something that we also eat and consume every day by using that kind of product? And in what quantity should there be lavender in a cookie to actually have an effect of relaxing our mind and thoughts and bodies?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yes, all the time when you are producing those kinds of products you have to make some confirmation that for example that the amount of these cookies will give you some healthy effects. But what is also not very well described and regulated in Poland or in Europe generally is that you do not need to make some clinical trial for that. For example, it’s the same for dietary products, yeah? You just have to prove with that kind of amount for example of using that kind of substance with that kind of researchers they prove that this kind of products works well. So they don’t need to make some clinical trial that’s needed for medical products. So that’s the difference between the dietary supplements and medical products. But for example in case of these clinical trials, in some Asian countries when this law about functional products is well regulated, they have to prove that not only this active substances have these valuable effects, but the products with these active substances does. So they have to make some clinical trials and check what are the consequences of eating this kind of cake with that amount of substances and if it works. But for example in Europe based on that we have some healthy claims like for example the claim we have on margarine for example that the margarine with certain substances will increase cholesterol level and they are claims that are evaluated by the European food safety authorities and they are saying that yes you can use it because we have some data that is saying that it really works. So they have some evidence that it works. But using the health claims is not an easy thing because they have to evaluate all this data, all this research and after that they are able to say if this claim really works or not. So there are not so many claims that we can use on different products. But in Asian countries it’s- they can instead of using claims they can use this kind of symbol. There’s always some kind of consequence evaluation of their government that it works. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Okay so we almost came to the end of our conversation. Can you share with us how you spent the last year? If the universities were shut most of the time throughout the year, how did your work look like? Did you prepare any lectures, how was it organized, how did you get in touch with your students and mentees because I know you’re a mentor also. So, how did it work and how did it affect your personal life?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yeah, I still work hard, but the way I work has changed totally. And the place where I work also. Because I mainly work remotely. I tried to adapt and see it as an opportunity rather than a problem. And all I can say is quite a challenge, yes, to survive in that situation. Of course I think that my priorities have changed and many things happened beyond our control so we just have to say okay it’s like that and go farther. We have to solve our problems step by step. We have more troubles in our everyday life but we just have to go, yes. And try to solve them. But of course working remotely at home with your children that are also staying at home because one of my children is in the 2nd grade of primary school and the second is at the end of kindergarten, so you can imagine. Both of them remotely and I with my husband the same so it was really crazy time. We tried to arrange it and make some plans and so on. It was very challenging time so- but also it gave us more opportunities, so I didn’t think about it like something very horrible, but of course we are still aware about our family, about ourselves, our health and so on. But I think that there are also some nice things that bring us that kind of situation and it gave us more opportunities for doing different kinds of things. And I can say that also there we can find a lot of pros and cons in society about this remote working. You know, it’s like easy communication for example now that we don’t need to move and take a plane to go somewhere and spend even three days for that kind of event. It’s easy communication, save of time, save of money in that case. For example I can have my lecture with my students in Warsaw from 8-10 and at 10 I can start my speech at the International Conference in China. I just change the channel and I’m there. So- on the different time zone, but-

Sanja Milosavljevic: But it’s manageable.

Katarzyna Świąder: It’s possible, yes, it’s possible. Of course I miss a lot travelling. I miss it a lot and I’m trying to do it in Poland, changing the places and just moving to the forest or whatever just to change the background and I try also to give that positive support to my children that it’s also a big stress for them, so just to show them that we try to live in a normal way. And after that I think that it’s less stressful for them also. 

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah I know, they are small and they absorb everything. In this age they absorb everything. It’s our duty to-

Katarzyna Świąder: But also-

Sanja Milosavljevic: Yeah, sorry, continue.

Katarzyna Świąder: Yeah, but I think that also it start to be for things that we are more flexible in time. You know before it was impossible for me to go for a walk in the forest during the day. Because I was working from morning through the afternoon so just afternoon it was possible to do that and after that it was night so you didn’t have fun like that. And now you can arrange everything so that you can try to put that kind of very important things also for you in the meantime. So it’s also one of the nice situations, but it also- try to- it force us to be more creative also I think. So we had some kind of situation that we were preparing a workshop that was also connected with some sensory evaluation. So when the pandemic came we were like oh my god, what we going to do now? So finally we find some solution that we organize the samples that some companies from abroad prepared samples for us. We repacked it, we prepared single packages for the people and we sent it, like a big package to each participant and make some sensory evaluation online, everyone had their set in front of the computer. We made our evaluation in this way. We had to be very creative, very flexible. I thought that I’m a very flexible person, that I’m very patient and humble but I think that you can be even more after this period.

Sanja Milosavljevic: After this year.

Katarzyna Świąder: I thought that I was on the top with the patience and after that I say no, Katarzyna, you can be more patient even. And more flexible and more humble. Because this situation also show you that you can be grateful for everything that you have got. That you have a place that you can stay that you can be happy with very small things and that- so many things, because when the pandemic came I realized that we lost our freedom also. So that we couldn’t do what we really want. And once I- when I visited my sister, she had some contact in Qatar and she was saying to me you know it’s some luxury life here and I think it’s fine, but what I’m missing is some kind of freedom, especially for the women in this country. And I realize that it can be some kind of problem that you can have nearly everything, but if you didn’t have your freedom it’s like you know. It’s the most important thing.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Of course, what are you going to do with everything that you have if you don’t have freedom to actually use it. You know?

Katarzyna Świąder: Yeah, yeah, that’s true. Making the choices, yeah. That’s important. I think what was also very difficult was lack of motivation that you have to work on your intrinsic motivation harder, so you have to be step by step saying to yourself okay, you can do it, you have to be brave, you have to make step by step, you have to make a good face for your children that everything is fine. So, this intrinsic motivation was very important at that moment also I think.

Sanja Milosavljevic: Okay Katarzyna thank you, thank you so much. Thank you for your time. As I said you are a superstar for food. Yes you are. Because you have that quality of explaining some maybe difficult things in normal language that most people can understand and that’s a quite-

Katarzyna Świąder: Oh thank you so much.

Sanja Milosavljevic: It’s really excellent feature. Because you were saying I remember when I was in that summer school, you were saying, sharing, teaching us some very difficult stuff. Most of us were maybe in food industry but are not food technologists by education and you managed to do that so that everyone in the room can understand and that’s quite a superpower so thank you.

Katarzyna Świąder: Thank you, thank you so much, that’s really nice to hear.

Sanja Milosavljevic: So, good people of the world, you were listening and watching to Kasia from Warsaw, Poland. You can always follow us on Facebook and Instagram and you can subscribe to our YouTube channel. Stay good, stay in good health and see you in a week.